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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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amax - Seriously, should we ban people from soloing because they may fall on someone below?
We? I think the days of we are over. Do you really think it is still up to we to decide what stays and what goes, anymore?
Look at it this way; We takes a vote and let's say it's unanimous (whatever we are voting on, but for the sake of this discussion, lets say it's soloing).
We says soloing will be allowed. Then notify Ueli, et al! Say something like this, "No worries bro, we voted on it, and you can solo the yak route to your hearts content."
I'm pretty sure that Ueli will respond to the tune of something like this, "We? We voted on it? WHO THE F*#K IS WE?"
Some peeps on this forum seem to be in denial, or something. Maybe they should watch the Godfather movie again. Because ya don't seem to be getting it.
Whisper this into the ear of the person sitting on your right and person sitting on your left, There's a new boss, and he's not the same as the old boss. ...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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A Sherpa friend from Khumbu (Namche) who lives in Vancouver comments that most of what we've heard so far about what happened is from westerners. For technological, logistical, economic and cultural reasons we've heard much less about the other sides of the story. As has been observed, it's usually a mistake to argue with people who buy their ink by the barrel.
It seems likely that most of those who were involved now regret it, as if nothing else there seems to have been profound miscommunication.
Jan: Tried to send a PM, but didn't get through.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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if i was Ueli, et al, and i really had any aspirations of ever soloing, or whatever, that
route again, i would, umm, well, pretty self explanatory i suppose, eh? ...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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raymond phule
climber
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They were not INTERNAL RULES, don't you Hungarians know how to read? They were rules agreed to by the entire climbing community!
My guess is that this is also one of your many lies but you can of course disprove it by giving a direct quote from a reliable source.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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If amax or anyone else will check post # 28 on this thread you will note that I early on brought up the issue of the commercial interests of both guide services and Sherpas and that they worked together.
As for banning soloists, that has been done to building climbers and can be done anywhere else that the officials in charge choose to do it. I'm pretty sure, whether everyone agrees or not, the Nepalese government will come down on the side of the most people satisfied and the most money made and that will not favor soloists.
Of course I am familiar with the climbing records of the three involved. That's exactly why I wondered about them being on the cargo route in the high season.
Some people would like to deny that culture had anything to do with this but it did - on both sides. To defend the competitive super achiever and lone individualist against the group is very western. To defend the interests of group survival against rebelllious individuals is very eastern. To deny there are any cultural differences involved is very American. I was taught in school that "people everywhere are just alike", which obviously isn't true but is a good national mythology for an immigrant nation.
As for Jennie's concerns that Nepalese might be more exploitative than westerners, that would probably take the form of corruption if it did, and the attempt to collect extra fees and higher percentages of profits and would more likely come from government officials. There are non Sherpa Nepalese business investors in some of the trekking and climbing groups managed by Sherpas. Since lowland Nepalis do not like cold and altitude however, they're content to collect profits and leave the rest to the Sherpas. Usually their role is to deal with the Nepalese bureaucrats since they have connections and speak Nepalese better and in return they get a salary and sometimes a share of the profits.
At this point in time, most Nepalese regard the Sherpas as a kind of living national treasure, a concept they are aware of thanks to the Japanese aid programs and influence in Nepal. Some Sherpa heros have received state funerals in the recent past and Sherpa customs like presenting white scarves have been adopted by many non Sherpas in Nepal as have certain Sherpa foods. They have gone from a discriminated against minority to national cultural symbols in only 40 years.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Thanks, I appreciate your comments, Jan...
Great to see Anders, back!
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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people
dont really climb on this side ....
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Burch3y, listen up...
Evidently they forgot to bring their whips, eh? ;-/
After seven grueling days of humping loads at altitude...
Dumb F*#k, "Why did they come down?"
DUH! F*#KING, DUH!!
Sherpa (laison, or whatever), "They we're tired. They have been carrying loads for 7 days!"
Sherpa, "Wake up, wake up. Carry, loads. Carry loads."
Dumb F*#k, "You have to talk to the rope leader. You just can't come down." ...
Umm...! Dunno, but, sounds to me as if their plan didn't include any rest days for the Sherpa. They shouldn't have had to ask for one, one should have been allotted.I wonder if they (limey climbers) were taking any rest days by rotating, switching leads. Or were they setting an example/standard and (being EXTREMELY DUMB F*#KS) and pushing it for seven days straight with out coming down and resting?
Answer, F*#K NO!
Plus, 'Dumb F*#k' was majorly talking down to them, imo, like he was talking to an 8 year old, "You've got to talk to the rope leader." - BTW, i would have clocked the d00d right there (wouldn't have wasted any time looking around for stones).
Because, first of all, it should be obvious that they needed a rest day after seven (7) fooking (said with a limey accent) days of humping loads at altitude!
There is something about that 7th day. "On the 7th day He rested."
Didn't fooking (limey accent) need to rest, because He's GOD!!
He did so to set an example. The rest day was meant for not only man, but also for beasts of burden (it states that in the OT). Because even fooking (limey accent) MULES need to rest sooner or later.
Sheesh, what a joke. Pathetic, to say the least!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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How about banning guiding on Everest,
Rule 1, no fixed lines..
Rule 2, no sucking "O"
That should clear the herds...
kind of like banning drills on el cap....there is always someone who thinks the rules are stupid or not for them.
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WBraun
climber
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Coz -- "This whole drama is just stupid and over analyzed."
SuperTopo is always like that "stupid and over analyzed"
I was in cafe this morning with James and we were laughing our asses off about the "stupid and over analyzed" bullsh!t about the "Midnight Lightning" chalk "lightning bolt" fiasco ......
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WBraun
climber
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I know NOT everything is stupid.
Most stuff is not.
I just like to say stupid all the time.
Must be because I'm stupid ..... :-)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Hawkeye, GFURSELF.
class act 4 shore dude.
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Can we get Coz and Hawkeye up on the Khumbu for a cage match?
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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PS: this kind of stuff is why I rarely visit Supertopo anymore.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Nah, the soap operas are the best part. From googlepedia:
The General Federation of Nepalese Trade Unions (GEFONT) (Nepali: नेपाल ट्रेड यूनियन महासंघ) is a confederation of 17 national trade union federations. It is politically tied to the Communist Party of Nepal (Unified Marxist-Leninist). GEFONT declares its goal to be "Socialism for the dignified working class and prosperous life".
Trade Unions have existed in Nepal since the All Nepal Trade Union Congress was formed in 1947, but only really came into power after the collapse of the Rana dynasty in 1951 and the movement towards democracy. GEFONT itself was established in 1989 by the Nepal Independent Workers Union, the Independent Transport Workers Association of Nepal, the Nepal Independent Hotel Workers Union and the Trekking Workers Association of Nepal. At the time of its foundation it functioned as the trade union wing of the then underground Communist Party of Nepal (Marxist-Leninist).
(I wrote the head of this union a letter, will get back to you all if he responds)
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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coz - Simply, if the three super-stars respected the work and respected the days the work was being done, and didn't ignore everyone, solo and crampon through their lines, none of this would have happened, end of story.
Umm, pretty sure that has been our contention, the point some of us have been advancing throughout this debate.
Problem, is, it didn't start with the "the three super-stars", and probably won't end anytime soon. Or certainly wouldn't have, if somebody wouldn't have put their foot down. It was bound to eventually boil over sooner or later as very succinctly stated by Lahkpa Sherpa!
Lhakpa Sherpa - As alluded by others, the fixing team were venting the frustration of all highly skilled and experienced Sherpa climbers who want to feel more respect from their western colleagues. For years they have quietly suffered and endured arrogance displayed from some western guides and professional climbers. ^^ Right from the horses mouth (so to speak). Concise and to the point. Ya can't make it any clearly than that.
DMT - It really is that simple.
Precisely!
May 6, 2013 - 05:21am PT
splitter - This is about respect, plain and simple.
Problem is, some peeps just don't seem to understand that...obviously.
coz - This whole drama is just stupid and over analyzed.
When an culture, or subculture or group of people (however you want to define it) who have been looked down upon, taken advantage of, abused and oppressed for years on end and are finally pressed to take extraordinarily extreme measures to express their discontent, something and somebody needs to be analyzed. Changes need to be made. And the social media has been integral to that process in many ways, it's a powerful tool. There is nothing stupid about people that are at least attempting to do something about it, imo.
And it generally signals that it is time for the world to sit up and take notice!
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amax
Trad climber
san diego
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Splitter:
The reality is that communities (both formal and informal) DO and will probably always have influence on individuals.
For example: Lets say WE is a hypothetical community that defines unwritten rules on how routes should be bolted in a certain popular climbing area, lets say JT. YOU (a hypothetical sport climber) feel that modifications must be made to make these routes safer and proceed to make these modifications (lets say add more bolts on classic R routes that cannot be protected with gear - sorry to bring up a topic that was already beaten to death). Now fill the blank space below with your ideas on how this behavior will affect your climbing career at JT :)). Also, try to refrain from acting like a typical keyboard hero and save insulting comments for real life :)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Coz and DMT: Thanks for reminding us there is a Zen version of the story. Myself I'm sticking to the Tibetan Vajrayana version. Both get you there.
As for over analyzed, what do you think the social sciences are up to anyway? ;)
And finally about Sherpa wages, the most a Sherpa can make for an Everest expedition is $6,000 for three month's work, including logistical prep and clean up time. That's $67 a day rounded off. Assuming they worked an 8 hour shift that's $8.38 an hour.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Talk down to me all you want, if your paying me the annual average salary of my country per day.
And I get to climb mountains? I suspect you would give it a pretty damn good shot, up to some point, especially if you were climbing mountains. But everybody has their breaking point. I mean after 7 days, they finally broke. Essentially said that's it, and decided they had to go down, no matter of what anyone else said. They are professional Sherpa, they know their own limits, regardless of how much they are being payed. How long did they expect them to go without a rest day? Why weren't they rotating Sherpa from their highpoint like they probably were their climbers? They shouldn't have had to have asked for a rest day (beg), it should have been allotted to them.
They impress me as being very meek in nature. So I can imagine that they generally only press issues so far, and then, rather then argue or whatever, they submit (become subdued). I think that was evident in the that encounter. BTW, great vid, thanks for sharing it.
amax - The reality is that communities (both formal and informal) DO and probably always will have influence on people. I totally agree. And I suspected that you were speaking in general terms about the WE taking a vote, etc! But using that approach in regards to this particular dilemma, wouldn't have much effect on how the Sherpa would continue to react, that's was what I was pointing out.
amax - Also, try and refrain from acting like a typical keyboard hero and save insulting comments for real life. :)
Not sure what a "typical keyboard hero" acts like, unless it's directly tied to the insulting comments. I find that contrast kind of confusing. I mean, a hero, in my mind, doesn't become one by using insulting comments.
Or maybe that is a two part suggestion?
Like...
Suggestion # 1. Try and refrain from acting like a keyboard hero!
Suggestion # 2. Save the insulting comments for real life!
Regarding #1. Like I said, I don 't have a clue what a keyboard hero is. So, I'm not exactly sure what I should be refraining from.
Regarding # 2. I can only recall using one (1) insulting comment on this whole thread, and I certainly didn't use them in the post that I directed to you.
That one time was when I asked someone the question; "How can you be so obtuse, is it deliberate?" And when he responded in a negative way about me calling him name, I felt like an as#@&%e (certainly didn't feel like a hero, keyboard, or otherwise) so I profusely apologized.
Other than that instance, I can't recall any insulting type of comments that I have made. :)
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