Chipping culprit filmed in NY

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mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:06pm PT

rgold, If I remember right, which I rarely do, you have a long history in the Gunks? Your take on the issue is definitely appreciated.

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:07pm PT

I am sorry, I do not agree. I think it is big time BS that it's in both guide books for years, it's on the cover of Smithsonian and we are now bitching about Ivan Greene today. There is nothing notably moving written up about it anywhere!, at least that I have been able to find.

This is where it all began, climber hangs off a chipped hold at the Gunks.

Would it be OK, do you think I could sell a guide with chipped climbs in it now, do you think it would be possible? If people complained as much back then as they are complaining today Williams would never have put it in there, that's obvious. So, yes, it is hypocritical to some extent or another, and I think I have established that.

In the mean time, if we want to make a statement and set things right, then start putting a rock back wherever it was taken out of. But we can't do that, right.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:11pm PT

What route is that? This is the route you were criticized for chipping? Looks like an amazing pitch.

Gunkie

Trad climber

East Coast US

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:16pm PT

That black seam in the foreground going out the roof is an aid climb "The Best Things in Life Aren't Free" and was done with a decent amount of blades, RURPs, and 'heads. I've looked at the line closely and I'm pretty sure it can't be done with clean gear between the fixed stuff (Don... maybe it has been done with only clean gear?). So, for all intents and purposes, that climb is off limits because of the hammering ban in the Gunks.

I'd say Ivan's heavy handed antics on the boulder, if it is on Preserve property, should be met with consequences reaching beyond the climbing community's scorn.

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:20pm PT

Don, this is my point exactly, you don't know where the incident is, and it is on the cover of the Simithsonian for crying out loud! But everyone knows about Ivan green crawling around under some rock somewhere ... we don't even know where it is.

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:27pm PT

Are you actually whining that your chipping atrocity did not get as much attention as Ivan's? Christ that is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard!

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:32pm PT

"The selfsame instinct ... self-glorification, ineptly practiced ... that drove his behavior BITD is alive and well and can be witnessed in full bloom on this thread. "

My behavior is posting information. It's here, but in all this, rather, why do you feel a need now to resort to such weakness to make these ad hominem attacks rather than deal with the information.

I have an arguemnt, do you know what it is?

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:36pm PT

"Are you actually whining that your chipping atrocity did not get as much attention as Ivan's? Christ that is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard! "

No, I am whining that the chipping of the French Connection did not get as much attention as Ivan's.

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:36pm PT

Your argument seems to be that you destroyed a perfectly good 5.14 warm up by chipping it and now you are upset that you didn't get as much attention as Ivan did.

splitclimber

climber

Sonoma County

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:37pm PT

where's the next "as the taco turns" thread,
i can't follow this anymore or figure out what donald is even trying to argue.

thx for your comments rgold and love gas

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:44pm PT

"I think your argument is that you destroyed a perfectly good 5.14 warm up by chipping it. And now you are upset that you didn't get as much attention as Ivan did. "

What 5.15? Both you are Mr. "My memory is a little hazy..." don’t have any idea what you are talking about. Look, if you guys want to make personal attacks all day, that's fine. But it does not prove what I said is wrong. In fact, it is just this kind of thing that would prove someone is correct. So, you keep posting personal attacks, and I will keep posting logical answers. No problem, it just proves your in denial.

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 27, 2013 - 05:46pm PT

I don't think "logical" means what you think it means.

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 27, 2013 - 06:03pm PT

I think you trying to justify someone chipping a 5' boulder problem in 2013 by bringing up something that was chipped in the mid-1980's is not only illogical, it is down right absurd.

By your "logic" nobody should complain if I used stove legs to bash my way up El Crap.

Dingus McGee

Social climber

Laramie

Feb 27, 2013 - 06:08pm PT

mechrist,

you men and your petty rules. Go climbing. For better or worse I now enjoy the pleasantries of sport climbing and could care less about how God put the holds on the rock.

donald perry

Trad climber

kearny, NJ

Feb 27, 2013 - 06:09pm PT

"I think you trying to justify someone chipping a 5' boulder problem in 2013 by bringing up something that was chipped in the mid-1980's is not only illogical, it is down right absurd."

Good, quote me.

"By your "logic" nobody should complain if I used stove legs to bash my way up El Crap."

That age was before the clean climbing era. What happened in the Gunks that I am referring to was well after the clean climbing era had gotten underway.

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Feb 27, 2013 - 06:24pm PT

That age was before the clean climbing era. What happened in the Gunks that I am referring to was well after the clean climbing era had gotten underway.

Who gives a fuk. Chipping is chipping. It was then and it is now.

I am whining that the chipping of the French Connection did not get as much attention as Ivan's.

Is there video of it being chipped? Was it posted on the intardweb? Were there over 10 million climbers in the US in 1985?

Gee, I wonder what "logical" reason there could possibly be for the attention.

My views on salvation? You are going to hell for being an idiot.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Feb 27, 2013 - 06:27pm PT

Perhaps two further observations are worth making here. The world-wide web didn't exist in the mid-eighties when The French Connection was chipped, but if it did, I feel certain there would have been a far bigger outcry than we've seen here.

A second major difference is that Ivan got himself videotaped. What level of outcry would we have if someone came running out of the woods crying, "Ivan is chipping boulders?" (Answer: this has already happened, so you simply need to scan the internet for signs of the ensuing tidal wave of outrage...not.) And even with evidence as incontrovertible as the current video, we have folks trying to distort the obvious into a benign image of some harmless "cleaning" activity.

So consider how all this plays out in the case of the French Connection. No internet to marshal the communal outrage, no video to prove anything happened, the chipping in a pretty inaccessible spot for most climbers and for a while just a rumor, and at least some people willing to give the chippers the benefit of the doubt in the absence of...why, in the absence of videotaped evidence! For all these reasons, outrage was much slower to build and was confined to a much smaller group of climbers, who mostly expressed their displeasure in person to the perpetrators and did not, therefore, leave the kind of written record Donald seems to be looking for. There was never any possibility for the kind of broad-based beyond-local reaction that we see now.

I could agree with Donald that chipping a superb testpiece in the Gunks is, in some sense, a "worse" violation that chipping some moss-covered overhang in the woods, and that the magnitudes of the community reactions to each do not seem to be appropriately proportional. Where I think he goes wrong is in taking the disparity in reaction as evidence of hyprocrisy of those who were around in French Connection days. The way in which the climbing public received evidence and the differences in communal interconnectivity make the two situations incomparable.