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WBraun
climber
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Apr 12, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
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Read the "Affidavit of Probable Cause" you posted.
Yikes.
What's up with all these armchair Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair lawyers here?
Hilarious.
Just think if Americas court system was Supertopo?
It be the same as Zimmerman's free lancing as LEO .......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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UPDATE, 3:45 p.m. ET: The affadavit filed Wednesday by prosecutors to establish probable cause of second-degree murder in the Trayvon Martin case has been released by the court. In it, prosecutors claim that George Zimmerman profiled Martin on Feb. 26, and during his call to the police dispatcher "made reference to people he felt had committed and gotten away with break-ins in his neighborhood."
More from the four-page court filing:
Later while talking about Martin, Zimmerman stated "these ---holes, they always get away" and also said "these ----ing punks."
During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by and unknown male and didn't know why. Martin attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman who didn't want the person he falsely assumed was going to commit a crime to get away before the police arrived. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin. When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin.
Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued. Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle. During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police. Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and has identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's voice.
Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. When police arrived Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin. Officers recovered a gun from a holster inside Zimmerman's waistband. A fired casing that was recovered at the scene was determined to have been fired from the firearm.
Assistant Medical Examiner Dr. Bao performed an autopsy and determined that Martin died from the gunshot wound.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Apr 12, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Callie - It is a weird sensation, to be imagining that scenario as laid out in the affidavit. That poor kid.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 12, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
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Fatty, you're sorta loved here despite all that bad stuff.
Not to late to shape up and have a broader spectrum heart
You can be sure if it was a Muslim who shot a Jew in the neighborhood, that you'd be calling for murder charges
Peace
karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 12, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Agreed Happie. Had to have been very scary for Trayvon.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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Apr 12, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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Z-man is in the court system where he belongs.
F I N I S for me.
EDIT: I would however, be interested in reading a thorough and thoughtful analysis of "stand your ground laws". Please post a link or start a new thread if you find one.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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I have seen several refrences to FL cases that seemed absurd that the shooter was not convicted of murder 2 or manslaughter.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 12, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
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That's because most people in Florida are nitwits.
Look how long it took them to slueth this one out.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 13, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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Amen. Now FL is paying the price for having such an ill-conceived law.
I had hoped that, if nothing else, the filing of charges might illustrate that there is nothing particularly wrong with this law, at least as applied to this case (it may well be fubar in other respects).
No such luck . . .
(And who knows how it will all turn out--depends on what the evidence is. Never really had much if anything to do with SYG.)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:44am PT
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Would it be wrong and un-decorous of me to say I hope they fry the little rat bastard punk.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.
At a pretrial hearing, Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense in order to get a judge to toss out the second-murder charges. And if that fails and the case does go to trial, the defense can raise the argument all over again.
There's a "high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case," Florida defense attorney Richard Hornsby said. Karin Moore, an assistant professor of law at Florida A&M University, said the law "puts a tremendous burden on the state to prove that it wasn't self-defense."
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Apr 13, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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The authorities told him to stand down. He got out of his car and pursued anyway. He had intention to pursue and was not being attacked. Sounds like murder not self defense.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 09:34am PT
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Yea, but it is FL.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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It's never that easy. just ask OJ............
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 13, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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Also Riley, what the media reports may not be the full information and it may not be accurate. This is not an indictment of the media, or saying they are purposely misleading. It is just the case that often in these types of situations, what the public hears and what the reality is differs. It can be due to someone reporting incorrect info to a reporter. Information not released to the media that paints a slanted picture. Or even one side running a PR campaign and using the media to do it. Or it could be some form of media just being dishonest.
I have worked as an expert witness in one case and I can tell you that the media's presentation of the case was massively wrong in every way! The narrative painted in the did not remotely resemble the reality. The public was outraged given what they knew. But they knew a complete fantasy.
Still, it's not to say that what we've heard is the full and complete truth. It may be, but it may not be either.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 13, 2012 - 10:42am PT
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For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.
At a pretrial hearing, Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense in order to get a judge to toss out the second-murder charges. And if that fails and the case does go to trial, the defense can raise the argument all over again.
Tradman, if the case were in Vermont, what do you think Zimmmerman (or VT, depending on how you look at it) would need to prove to assert self-defense? By what burden of proof?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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I was licenced in VT as an armed guard for my friends escort service. never actually worked for him but the guy was one of our martial arts students and wanted me on the books most likly so he could spray about how many Black belts he had on board. I was also a competition pistol shooter at that time. Primarly competing in IPSC but shot a few Bowling pin matches, steel matches and Police Practical Combat. Shot about 25 matches a year. I was the #2 shooter in the state(small state) from 1988 to 1992 when I lost interst and got back into climbing.
VT is fairly strict about shooting people. The person you shoot must not only be threatening annother life at the moment that you shoot him but must also have the means to carry out that threat. No wiggle room for phantom threats like FL where you may shoot when afraid even if the threat is not real. You may also shoot someone in the comission of a felony though I do not know the details of that option. We have very few homocides in the state. generaly less than 10 per year? The last one that I clearly remember as a self defense trial was the guy in chester who went nuts @ a softball game with an AX. Some redneck went to his truck, got his deer rifle and messed up the first shot. Hit ax man in the leg on round one, finished him off as he was crawling away and went down for murder 2. In VT past threats do not count. The threat must be iminent. It was ruled that after the aught 6 to the leg Ax man was wimpering like a kicked dawg and crawling for his life therfore no longer an iminent threat when drunk redneck plugged him in the back. Not certain how that would have gone down in FL but most likly they would have given the deer hunter a medal...
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 13, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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"The authorities told him to stand down."
that's simply not true, philo; z said he was "following" and the dispatcher said, "we don't need you to do that", which is NOT a command; you may consider that flimsy semantics, but there's a huge difference between a cop saying, "freeze" and a cop saying, "i'd like to talk to you"; with the first, i'd be disobeying a command and,thus, fleeing; with the second, i'm simply declining an invitation.
"He got out of his car and pursued anyway."
again, "pursue" implies intent to do harm; z was simply following martin (based on the evidence released so far); that is NOT against the law and well within anybody's rights; it's also perfectly reasonable for a neighborhood watch to "follow" a suspicious person
"He had intention to pursue and was not being attacked."
yes, he intended to follow marting, but the evidence released so far indicates that Z was attacked; alan dershowitz gives an excellent explanation as to why this charge should be tossed out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK9tMfLmbc
"Sounds like murder not self defense."
not even close despite your emotional response to the story; here's an excellent explanation of florida law and what the prosecution faces in trying to get a conviction:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/12/guide-to-florida-murder-law
prediction: plea deal to manslaughter, 3-5 years, z serves one year; incessant huffing and puffing through the election cycle with various bills to limit gun ownership, restrict carry permits, and revise current syg laws all of which are quietly defeated with bipartisan support AFTER the elections are over
ps: yes, it is wrong for you to want z to "fry" for a SECOND-DEGREE murder charge before he's had his trial
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 13, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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why did z follow martin? many here speculate that z wanted to "prove something"
why would martin attack a man who was following him? see above
martin was 6'2"; why would z attack a suspicious looking man who is bigger than him? and if z meant to do him harm why would he confront a bigger man without having his weapon drawn? and if z had his weapon drawn, why would martin not run or scream for help rather than getting into a scuffle with an armed man? and if z did intend harm and did have his weapon drawn, why did he allow martin to get close enough to punch him in the face, knock him down, and bang his head on the sidewalk (all of which, the evidence does show)?
likely, we'll never know (enough to satisfy everyone) what exactly happened, but speculation works both ways
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