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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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No and I probably never will now. But when I was young and driven 13 surgeries ago Cerro Torre was at the top of my list. And not via the Bolt Route. I was actively planning for a trip there in 80 or 81 but having my lip split by my own foot when my knee was violently hyper-extended pretty much changed my plans for ever. Cerro Torre was and is still the most enigmatic symbol of the purity of great alpinism and the taint of overbearing ego. It matters to me "because it's there".
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llkk
Trad climber
boulder
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)
Two people are on the way to the Nose to chop Harding bolts...(right, Lynn hill free it in 92) , so you mediocres climbers can not climb the nose ever again!!
Also, Take out few via ferratas in the Dolomites
Chop the bolts in Squamish in the Sword and Perry's Layback...
C'mon !! Human stupidity does not have limits!!
I totally disagree with Rolo, Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk
and feel ashame for the people who are happy for the chopped bolts without knowing sh#t of history
The 2 idiots, in their cleanest ascent still need to use the rappells of Maestri
I dont like Maestris way, but why if entire Chalten community agreed in keeping the bolts as a historic ascent or whatever
why this 2 20/30 year old kids have to come and take bolts out, who the hell are they?
With 5.10 shoes, nice booties, arriving in aeroplane few hs from the plane, reading the forecast!!
f*#k them
give me a break,
First respect for the older generation
Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well
I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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@llkk:
"First respect for the older generation"
Interesting. Of that "older generation", we've heard that two major players from that time period - Carlos Comesana and Reinhold Messner (via Cedar Wright's comments) - who agree wholeheartedly with chopping the bolts.
"Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well
I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!"
Considering you don't know the difference between an American and a Canadian, I don't think you should be telling others they "dont know shit!".
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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No I don't agree. Many of us know a great deal of the history of Cerro Torre. That is why some are ashamed of Maestri's rape. He was one of the greatest climber's of his time and he pissed it all away on Cerro Torre.
If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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Did somebody just fart?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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The Nose bolts won't get chopped.
It's not even the same.
Lynn didn't chop them because she has good brain to begin with.
Stupid argument trying to use the Nose on El Cap for this Cerro Tore thing.
People are stupid ......
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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The Grand Wall in Squamish British Columbia might be a more fitting analogy then, even more so considering its the home town of Jason Kruk.
A megaclassic trad climb up the center of one of the most beautiful granite walls in North America. Originally climbed using many, many bolts over a very long period of time. Now convenience bolt anchors on every pitch. Two bolt ladders, one quite extensive, that can be avoided by free climbing with significantly fewer bolts. All that followed up by a heavily bolted wide crack undercling.
If a crack Italian team showed up in Squamish, climbed the free the route, then chose to chop all the bolts they didn't use because they considered them unneccesary and offensive well it seens that Kruk and Kennedy would have just created the precedent to do so.
Ultimately every new route is a creative process. Whether it include a heavy handed bolt ladder on the headwall by Maestri or whether it be the Kruk-Kennedy route that used on 5 lead bolts and ??25-50-100?? belay bolts.
Chopping a route is a destructive process no matter how you cut it. If your going to take that path you better be both damn sure of yourself as well as incredibly consistent in your actions to avoid looking like a hypocrite and a fool. It seens that the great climbers tended to have enough wisdom to realise this even if they didn't neccesarily agree with the actions and impact of others.
Jason doesn't need or deserve the collective guilt of modern Squamish bolting practices hung around his neck. But damn there are enough squeeze jobs, bolted cracks and unnecesary bolt ladders there to keep a lad busy for a good long while.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)
That is NOT even slightly funny!
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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Fine, let's see them actually do that rather than just threaten it in this thread. And I suspect all the bolts would just get replaced in short order (as anyone with the inclination is more than welcome to do on Cerro Torre).
Also, with respect to any "if you haven't climbed it then why are you talking about it?" posts: I guess there's a lot of posts that should be deleted from the Wings Of Steel threads then, by that standard.
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Kimbo
Sport climber
seattle
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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@ philo:
If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.
i can completely respect your above opinion, and anyone's opinion on this matter, but do you agree with the way the removal was done?
you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Give it a rest, Phil.
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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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@ Kimbo:
you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....
How is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?
I don't see anything democratic about this - please enlighten me.
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Kimbo
Sport climber
seattle
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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How is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?
I don't see anything democratic about this - please enlighten me.
I never did claim the '07 meeting to represent "all of us", but at least it was an attempt to deal with the situation in a consensus-building way, correct?
which is a lot more than the current approach incorporated, correct?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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Old news already.
Now that it is a done deal let us take an international poll.
Surely more than 40 people have an opinion.
You all might be surprised at how many applaud the removal of Maestri's folly.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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How's this for irony?
Patagonia™ Climbing Ambassador Hayden Kennedy
g
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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It's not like he climbed Delicate Arch.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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It's not like he climbed Delicate Arch.
Otherwise he would have to resign himself to being a spokesmodel on Italian television for slacklining.
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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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@ Kimbo
I never did claim the '07 meeting to represent "all of us", but at least it was an attempt to deal with the situation in a consensus-building way, correct?
which is a lot more than the current approach incorporated, correct?
Not really - there are a lot more people involved here and this website is a much better opportunity to build a consensus. Perhaps we should start with an online poll?
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stefano607518
Trad climber
italy/austria/switzerland
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Jan 23, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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@foradaiball
perche´ non provi a scrivere in inglese? se parli in italiano qua un te capisce niscuno...
why do not you try to write in english? nobody is gonna understand you if you speak in italian...
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jan 23, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Now that it is a done deal let us take an international poll.
Surely more than 40 people have an opinion.
You all might be surprised at how many applaud the removal of Maestri's folly.
FWIW, I don't applaud the removal any more than I applauded the installation. IMO, both were a travesty.
Now you have 41.
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