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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
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I read yesterday that modern designs are arranged so that the coolant will circulate by convection if the power goes off, meaning one can basically walk away from the reactor after the control rods are in and it will cool itself with no pumps.
Do I have this right Adam?
Would this require the manual opeation of certain valves to enable?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
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The following lists the GE Mark 1 reactors in the United States:
Reactor Location Size (MW) Year
Browns Ferry 1 Decatur, AL 1065 1974
Browns Ferry 2 Decatur, AL 1104 1975
Browns Ferry 3 Decatur, AL 1105 1977
Brunswick 1 Southport, NC 938 1976
Brunswick 2 Southport, NC 920 1975
Cooper Nebraska City, NE 770 1974
Dresden 2 Morris, IL 867 1970
Dresden 3 Morris, IL 867 1971
Duane Arnold Cedar Rapids, IA 580 1975
Hatch 1 Baxley, GA 876 1975
Hatch 2 Baxley, GA 883 1979
Fermi 2 Monroe, MI 1122 1988
Hope Creek Hancock's Brdg, NJ 1161 1986
Fitzpatrick Oswego, NY 854 1976
Monticello Monticello, MN 572 1971
Nine Mile Point 1 Oswego, NY 621 1969
Oyster Creek Toms River, NJ 615 1969
Peach Bottom 2 Lancaster, PA 1112 1974
Peach Bottom 3 Lancaster, PA 1112 1974
Pilgrim Plymouth, MA 685 1972
Quad Cities 1 Moline, IL 867 1972
Quad Cities 2 Moline, IL 867 1972
Vermont Yankee Vernon, VT 620 1972
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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It does tend to show how dependent we are on coastal regions, and how vulnerable they often are to climate and geology. In the case of Japan, a very fertile island arc, which partly due to climate and partly due to vulcanism supports a large population. Both of which come with a price. Being on an island arc means being exposed to earthquakes, eruptions and tsunamis, and being in the mid-latitudes means being exposed to typhoons. As well, volcanic soils are fertile, but are also often unstable.
There are many other places worldwide with similar advantages, and challenges.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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Yes, I had to chuckle when I read that some officials are now rating the whole thing as less serious than Three Mile Island. Obviously they have already started their attempt to sweep it under the carpet, which is the usual Japanese reaction to bad news.
As for ordinary Japanese, it was very interesting today to see that all the televisions in public businesses were on so people who wanted to could keep track could, but were tuned very low so as not to disturb the customers who didn't want to hear about it. And nobody Japanese would talk to me about the reactor problem.
On previous days when the focus was on the earthquake and tsunami, the tv's were going full blast and everyone was talking about it. Clearly the reactor failure is a matter of great national shame.
The Japanese habit of ignoring unpleasant things works well in a homogenous society but is not so appreciated outside of Japan. However, I'm sure many things will change now as a result of this incident, and hope one of them is greater transparency.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
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The info in Cleo's link is good and worth reading. The statement about Chernobyl not causing any serious damage locally is wrong. The rest is accurate up to now. Still plenty of potential for this to get worse I think, the title of the article is premature.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 15, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
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A cultural corollary is the propensity to insist that the perfect become the enemy of the good.
That may have led to delays in getting the vessels vented early on.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 15, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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As far as the nuclear waste goes, I heard that the French recycle theirs. When I asked why we don't do that here I was told that the public would never allow that stuff to be transported to the recycling facility. You know "Not through my State", "Not through my town". Anyone know if this is true? I work at Nuke plants, but never at a single loop plant like the ones with the issues. I start work at a single loop plant on the 30th. I was told that this plant was rated by the NRC as one of the worse in the country. This should be interesting:-),
Roger
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
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Roger -
France has "Breeder Reactors", which recycle the spent rods into more fuel for the reactor - e.g. it uses the waste to make more power.
This results in more power per amount of fuel AND reduces the amount of leftover waste by A LOT, meaning less of a storage problem.
I think that we are against those types of reactors because we a) don't want to build nuclear power here anymore and b) something about the recycling process creates a product that *could*, *maybe* be used for nefarius purposes. E.g. we think they are a security risk.
Anyway, that's the sum total of of my knowledge on that! Google Breeder Reactor for more info.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 15, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
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hey there say, jan.... thanks for all your shares from the japan area.... and your other shares as to the folks(people)...
my friend,there, in her last email, she mentioned that she had fears about the radiation, due to the fact that the governing bodies may not be presenting everything and that things may be worse, and as one does not spout these out, some of these things are shared among each other at proper times, it seems (?)...
she was ready to hear more bad news, such as has come out now...
:(
*course, i know we all were suspecting this, but she knew according to "principles" as you stated...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 15, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
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radical-
Each system has it's strengths and weaknesses. Our strength is our individual initiative, especially in a crisis, which happens to be their weakest point. What they excel at are the mundane details that make life so agreeable here. Their work is high quality and done with such a great spirit.
I've been in crisis situations here in road accidents where they were paralyzed until I just started giving orders. As soon as I took charge, they fell into place and worked with great zeal. I'm really hoping that the arrival of outside nuclear experts will work like that also. If they say the Japanese Air Force needs to start dropping concrete and sand bags on the reactor, they will do it with great efficiency and self sacrifice, but someone needs to take charge.
The other important thing is to save face in the process by praising what they've done right and ignoring what they haven't. No one needs to tell them that there was a screw up. They've already internalized that.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 15, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
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Roger,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing
In October 1976, fear of nuclear weapons proliferation (especially after India demonstrated nuclear weapons capabilities using reprocessing technology) led President Gerald Ford to issue a Presidential directive to indefinitely suspend the commercial reprocessing and recycling of plutonium in the U.S. On April 7, 1977 , President Jimmy Carter banned the reprocessing of commercial reactor spent nuclear fuel. The key issue driving this policy was the serious threat of nuclear weapons proliferation by diversion of plutonium from the civilian fuel cycle, and to encourage other nations to follow the USA lead.[4] . After that, only countries that already had large investments in reprocessing infrastructure continued to reprocess spent nuclear fuel. President Reagan lifted the ban in 1981, but did not provide the substantial subsidy that would have been necessary to start up commercial reprocessing.[5]
In March 1999, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) reversed its own policy and signed a contract with a consortium of Duke Energy, COGEMA, and Stone & Webster (DCS) to design and operate a Mixed Oxide (MOX) fuel fabrication facility. Site preparation at the Savannah River Site (South Carolina) began in October 2005.[6][7]
There are some things in here that are inconsistent. MOX simply makes fuel and is not a reactor. Also, Reagan lifting the ban but not providing funding does not make sense to me but it may be true.
This is also informative reading:
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 15, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1#
Tokyo (CNN) -- After three explosions and a fire in four days, the situation at Japan's earthquake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant grew more serious Tuesday, chasing all but a handful of workers from the site and raising fears of a far more dangerous radiation threat.
The latest incidents, an explosion Tuesday at the plant's No. 2 reactor and a fire in a cooling pond used for nuclear fuel at the No. 4 reactor, briefly pushed radiation levels at the plant to about 167 times the average annual dose of radiation, according to details released by the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Man o man. I hope these guys are able to keep things together and may god bless them.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 15, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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Rok, I am pretty certain that the NaCl will mostly evaporate and not become part of the radioactive particluate. The reactors are fried after the injection of the seawater though.
The original plan was to have backup Emergency Diesel Generators (EDG's) to come on and supply the power needed to pump cooling water through the reactor. As soon as the earthquate hit, control rods were inserted into teh reactor stopping the bulk of the nuclear reaction. The reamining heat is close to about 3% due to the radiatoin of the fuel. The Tsunami then wiped out the EDG's becuase the waves were much bigger than planned. Then a battery backup worked for several hours. If there is not a significant breach in the primary containment then most of the radioactive nastiness will remain contained. Right now, the reamining operators are simply trying to keep the fuel and spent fuel covered by water.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 15, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
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Cleo,golsen, thanks for that information,
Roger
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 15, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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Roger,
no problem and good luck at your new place of employ. Hope it is safe.
My current job is building part of the Waste Treatment Plant at Hanford which will be used to vitrify the 53 Million Gallons of radioactive waste generated from extracting weapons grade Plutonium from used nuclear fuel at the Hanford Site.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 15, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
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Rok,
our plant is only being constructed to treat waste in WA. While INEL does have some waste it is small compared to what we have here. Just as Idaho would cry foul if WA sent all their waste your way, WA state feels the same way.
The inventory that I have seen (not sure it is a public database) shows INEL has about 280 Metric Tons of Spent Nuc. Fuel versus roughly 10 times that at Hanford.
INEL has about 4400 Cubuc Meters of High Level Waste (HLW) that is in solid form. Hanford has 53 Million Gallons in Liquid Form.
Other than that I dont know much about INEl's Environmental Issues.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 15, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
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hey there say, jan....
that is why i love the joint-efforts of folks working together and helping each other (which need to happen in everyday life, worldwide)(and even, starting in the home-front of our own families)...
enhancing each other, uplifting, smoothing shortcoming, and adding fresh inspiration, comes through willing hearts, may more folks learn this before worse times hit the world (meaning, in one sense, here, that the human heart is far behind the shakings that are underfoot)...
when joint efforts intertwine proper:
this is a picture of what "quits" are like, as a human-picture, if humans could just grasp the concept more... a lovely presentation, comforting, and long lasting, when all share love and work, and let the ego take a rest...
thanks for nice thoughts, jan, and your nice example...
jan's words:
Each system has it's strengths and weaknesses. Our strength is our individual initiative, especially in a crisis, which happens to be their weakest point. What they excel at are the mundane details that make life so agreeable here. Their work is high quality and done with such a great spirit
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