Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
|
God loves us.....
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
|
Context!
Proverbs 23:29-35, Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30 Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
31 Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
32 In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
33 Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
34 You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
35 “They struck me,” you will say, “but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink.”
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
|
Commandments From Hell, or God, or maybe HUMANS?
1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned”.
2nd. Commandment, Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.” Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.” That’s right kids don’t EVER draw, sculpt or paint or else god will curse you. Wanna be an artist, a photographer, take a picture of yourself or family? TOO BAD, God says no! You better drop out of art class before he smites you with boils.
3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”, New Testament punishment - Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”. Numbers 15:32. “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
5th. Commandment, Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 21:15-17 “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death”. More punishment - Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”.
6th. Commandment, Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill”. Strangely enough this is a commandment despite all the punishments that require death in the New Testament and the Old Testament. How can thou not kill when thou is commanded to kill at the same time? This hypocrisy should be pointed out if the ten commandments are posted in schools, court rooms and buildings of legislation. The confusion of this commandment would surely bring capitol punishment into question.
7th. Commandment, Exodus 20:14 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death”.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
|
The so called Christians don't follow the tenth commandment at all.
They maintain industrialized slaughterhouses.
They kill animals and say the animals have no soul but they, (the Christians) do and it's ok to eat them.
Let us kill their dogs, eat them, and say it doesn't matter because their dog doesn't have a soul and we humans have dominion over animals, such a crock.
They'd scream bloody murder if you killed their dog.
They misinterpret the tenth commandment to be murder. Well then you are murdering animals.
The rascals will then say the vegetarians are murdering vegetables and fruits, hahaha
Such is the way of hypocrisy ......
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
|
What Defiles a Person
Matthew 15:10-11, And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
What Defiles a Person
Mark 14:14-23, And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” 17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
|
The River of Life
Revelation 22:1-2, Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Vegetarians in Heaven?!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
|
The River Of Death: Sex Slaves and how God wants them treated:
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
|
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
|
John 8:1-11, but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
Don't do to others you wouldn't want done to you! (a)
Do unto others as you would want done unto you! (b)
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
|
So if an "oldbook" Christian carried out that last deed cited by Normon-- would he be insane or mentally ill? --the same adjectives many used to label Scott Roeden, the "killer of the baby killer."
Would it be right to (i) declare him insane or mentally ill (as well as criminal), (ii) lock him away, forget about him? forget about the issue and move on? Would it be right to (iii) NOT CRITICALLY EXAMINE the circumstances any deeper?
(a) oldbook Christians: Christians who take guidance from the Old Testament.
(b) newbook Christians: Christians who take guidance from the New Testament.
Food for thought: Wasn't Scott Roeden a rare bird in today's society? meaning he was serious old-school -- a serious oldbook Christian who believed Obedience to God Jehovah means practicing (through action) His edicts?
And if we do call him "insane" or "mentally ill" isn't it for another reason altogether? because he carried around in his head antiquated bronze-age models for (you guessed it) how the world works and how life works?
But through all this, I'm thankful.
I'm thankful America doesn't have as many oldbook faithful as the Arab world. I'm thankful for evolution, in this case cultural evolution, esp since the Renaissance. In America, I'm thankful oldbook Christians are giving way to newbook Christians.
Gandi- Be the change you seek in the world.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
|
When Will GOD STOP ORDERING All the Killing?
The Bible is the direct word of GOD.
Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
|
Historically speaking, the oldest Christian churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Chaldean, Assyrian, Nestorian, Mar Thome) have all understood that the New Testament superseded the Old and have used the Old sparingly, citing only the best parables and sayings from the Old in their services and sermons.
The Protestants 400 years ago began putting more emphasis on all the scripture as a whole, but also picked and chose. Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
|
Mark 6:11, And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” Norton?
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
|
You are right, Jan, regarding your first paragraph. And what does this show? Humans being all too human. This practice lets all the crap of the OT (the atrocities, the injustices, the deceptions, etc.) succeed as necessary (for the Iagos of the world) by flying under the radar. Shame! Well, thank goodness, growing numbers are saying, basta, enough. Of the excuse making, too.
Regarding your second paragraph: How disappointing. I also have studied the Church down through the centuries. From an earlier thread, you indicated you taught comparative religion?! Where'd you learn about the history of Christianity, in a Christian seminary?! Sorry, but being the good writer you are, your thoughtfulness on other threads, you should know better. Start with burning of William T., the burning of Bruno, books like malleus maleficarum, etc.
P.S. I know about fundamentalist Christianity (original Christianity, medieval Christianity, whatever you want to call it), my own Grandmother from Belvue KS was a diehard bible person, bible student, believing it all to the letter-- no differently from umpteen million illiterates through European medieval ages.
No excuses for its history. No cherry-picking. Not by growing millions. Thanks internet-driven info age. But you go ahead and cherry pick the history and the perspectives if that's how you want to play it.
But how fitting at this time to suggest to you to read some Howard Zinn, he's a historian (just died), who wrote of the dangers of cherry pickin perspectives, points of view, etc.
Jan wrote- Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
That's as bogus as the truth-claim the Egyptians bombed Pearl Harbor.
EDIT And obviously the usage of fundamentalist would be new. Modern culture needed a term to contrast with moderate Christian or new-age Christian. Analogy: acoustic as in acoustic guitar is new, needed to contrast with electric guitar when the latter emerged. But that hardly means acoustic guitars didn't exist before electric guitars! It's the way language is, the way it works.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
|
How is this one, Gobbee?
God really gets off on human sacrifice, it thrills him to no end:
The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord".
Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
|
The evolution of religion on this planet as discovered by Anthropology:
Hunters and Gatherers, Pastoral Nomads, Horticulturalists = Animism, Magical, Mythological religions. The oldest example of religion is Neanderthals about 150,000 years ago.
Animism = Nature worship
Mythological = Creation Account of God, Man, and the Universe
Magical = Shamans with special powers who talk to the spirit world
Genesis is the mythological element of the Abrahamic religions.
Magical religion is shown in the story of Jacob tying knotted sticks and placing them in water holes to cause more spotted sheep to be born after making a deal with his father-in-law Jacob, that he could keep all the black and spotted sheep.
Animistic religions frequently feature ideas of purity and pollution of which there are many in the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament. Frequently these take the form of food taboos though these taboos have been shown to actually be ecologically very sound ideas. Likewise ideas of bathing and childbirth.
The Middle East before oil was one of the most inhospitable places on earth. Only the tough survived in the fight for scarce water holes and arable land. The Old Testament and Koran reflect this.
......................................................................
Agricultural religions = reverential
They are labeled reverential by Anthropologists as they stress the vast difference between God(s) and human beings, reflecting the new hierarchy of humans necessary to organize society when agriculture enables so many more of them to survive and crowd together in cities.
Religion goes from a source of group identity where either men or women can be leaders to male dominated hierarchies which emphasize literacy for the proper interpretation of scripture and ritual. Priests are the intermediaries and soon manipulate both power and economics.
Typically, the head of state is also the head of the religion, a god on earth or a representative of God. The ancient Egyptians and Incas are a perfect example though the belief persisted in modern day China until the 1930's and Japan until 1945.
Agricultural religions = transcendental reactions
All of these hypocritical and oppressive hierarchies elicited spiritual reactions. The Old Testament prophets were reacting to the Jewish establishment which became reverential after the return from Egypt and the building of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Jesus of course continued this tradition. Overturning the table of the money lenders in the Temple at Jerusalem being a prime example.
Buddha occupies a similar position in opposition to the Brahmin hierarchy in India.
Christianity as a whole became a reverential religion when Constantine made it the Roman state religion.
...................................................................
18th Century Secular ideologies = industrial Age
Marxism, Fascism, Democracy, Sociology, Psychology etc.
..................................................................
21st Century trends
1) Syncretism. Choosing the best of several
2) Cultural pluralism. Recognizing they all contain truth and are just different paths
3) Experiential. The search for inner experiences away from institutions
4) Fundamentalist backlash at too much change too fast.
................................................................
Religions of transition when two cultures meet and conflict or one overwhelms the other:
Syncretism, Nativism, Cargo Cults, Millenarial-Messiah cults, Revolutions
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
|
"How is this one, Gobbee?"
God is a Holy God! He sent His Son as a sacrifice once and for all! If He didn't no one could be saved!
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
|
Fructose-
I was writing about a particular over all interpretation of the Bible, a theological issue based in part on other issues like the veracity of translations.
You are writing about atrocities which occurred as the result of medieval Catholic church power holders feeling that their power was threatened by alternative interpretations of scripture and philosophy.
The medieval battle was over the source of authority, and the perceived threat to a political and religious edifice based on both scripture and Greek philosophy. When Galileo, argued that the earth went around the sun, he was contradicting Aristotle and the melding together of the Bible and Greek philosophy which had held together for over a thousand years, not just scripture.
The Catholic church erroneously thought that everything would come apart if any one part of it was shown to be incorrect (the same mistake the Protestant fundamentalists are currently making). Centuries later, the Catholic Church is still here, the largest denomination of Christianity in the world, and it has made the declaration that Christian faith and evolution are compatible.
It is however, still trying to maintain the primacy of males over females in my estimation, by focussing so much on sexual issues like divorce, birth control, abortion, male priests only etc. Interestingly, the branch of Christianity losing members most rapidly however, are the mainstream Protestants who based their faith on scripture alone. A literal interpretation is not possible for thinking people and they are now stranded between the fundamentalists or accepting the older Christian consensus that there are other sources of authority such as tradition and ritual, or they are becoming New Age and Renascent Christians.
The Catholic church cleverly is continuing to grow by giving up on the educated, developed world, and focussing on poor developing countries which it makes even poorer with its polices on birth control. This can only last a generation or two however, until those areas of the world become educated enough to ask the same questions which brought disbelief and rebellion in the West.
Any way you look at it, Christianity is in trouble unless it makes major changes. It will either change or fall from its own internal contradictions. The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
|
What kind of god would order his own son to be tortured and die?
Answer: A god made up in the heads of really backward and ignorant people.
Gobbee, let's you and I agree to stop posting sections from the bible?
We are not converting anyone to our point of view, so let's just stop?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!