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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Perhaps much the same thing that happens to gravity when the rock slid stops (JL)
That's a very provocative analogy. I would agree if emphasis is placed on perhaps. While we are sliding through life we are subject to and propelled by an underlying force of awareness. Awareness triggers free will be it "free" or not.
Metaphysics, but intriguing.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Choice happens, now. Now. Now. Now. Now. Now. Now. Now. . . . .
Or, it never does.
How would you know? What kind of experiment could you run to show choice? You’d have to line up the entire set of parallel universes, connect them somehow to show that they are parallel, and then show it.
What we all have are our narratives. Theories. If you point to one point in the arc of your plot line and say, “there I could have made another choice . . . I was wise . . . I did the right thing,” you have no way of showing that things could have possibly been any different. All you have is what you have. It’s just a story. YOU’RE just a story. So am I.
The word “metaphysics” is a word like any other word. Take your pick.
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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What happens to "raw awareness" when we die?
How can you have dreams when you are unconscious?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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That's as close as I can get to describing it in short form.
Simple is good.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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It is true that I view people as a unique collection of their life's experiences, including their formal and informal learning as modified by their equally unique biological existence which includes their biological inheritance.
To this aggregation the assignment of "person" (the "I" or "you") seems quite natural and even complete.
The effect a person may have on the future, in this construction, has to do with their biological legacy in reproduction and their role as a teacher to others, whether that is a formal or informal. The symmetry is obvious.
Such a construction is wholly consistent with our understanding of "person." And while we can add to this construction, I'm not sure we could take anything away from it and still have a "person." Opinions on the parsimoniousness of such a definition, or even the desirability of achieving a parsimonious definition obviously vary, there is room for intellectual fashion in all our thoughts so long as our constructions are consistent.
whatever floats your boat, floats our's too...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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How can you have dreams when you are unconscious?
So death is merely being unconscious? Are you saying that somehow raw awareness continues even if the host is deceased? Is awareness God? Is it possible to access awareness when no longer living? Does raw awareness depend upon the living brain? Are brains like radio receivers, tuning in to awareness?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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this monk continues to inform our narrative.
Why?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Is he locked into a terminal case of raw awareness?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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It is true that I view people as a unique collection of their life's experiences, including their formal and informal learning as modified by their equally unique biological existence which includes their biological inheritance.
i see the same. So would you say their life's experiences within their environment has the ability to change their biological inheritance?
Long ago man surely had more of a propensity to kill, animals and other men. Today most people frown down on the killing of any man. This change in attitude most likely came from environmental input. Thus over time changing the biological existence causing a change in the genetic makeup of what's to be passed on? This being an example.
i'm really wondering how much the environments input has to do with shaping/contorting our genes compared to the mere mixing of genes provided through procreation?
Are societal morals and opinions enough to change our genetic makeup??
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Ed: biological legacy in reproduction and their role as a teacher to others, whether that is a formal or informal. The symmetry is obvious.
I don’t understand why you pointed out any symmetries, other than to provide some sense of elegance in your model. I like your sense of beauty, but I don’t understand how it helps to indicate what things are.
Jgill: So death is merely being unconscious? Are you saying that somehow raw awareness continues even if the host is deceased?
Who knows? What I am noting is that unconsciousness does not prevent or preclude involvement in knowing or understanding. I’ve made an observation that you seem to admit to. It’s our first step toward fuller understanding. There should be more observations, maybe other kinds, if we’re on to something.
How about knowing that you’re hungry? How about knowing when to fight and when to run away? That knowledge seems to just show up and automatic. The determinations seem to be invisible . . . not conscious.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Yes, the autonomic nervous system.
It's a wondrous thing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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MikeL:
Choice happens, now. Now. Now. Now. Now. Now. Now. Now. . . . .
Or, it never does.
How would you know? What kind of experiment could you run to show choice? You’d have to line up the entire set of parallel universes, connect them somehow to show that they are parallel, and then show it.
I don’t understand why you pointed out any symmetries, other than to provide some sense of elegance in your model. I like your sense of beauty, but I don’t understand how it helps to indicate what things are.
one of the most important ideas in the scientific perspective on reality is the concept of locality. In an important way it is tied up with the scientific ideas on causality.
If we are of that reality, one with that reality, we are subject to the same principles and properties of that reality.
In the continuum of human life we might view it as such a continuum. When we read of the concerns 2000 years ago, we hear many of the same things we do today. In some ways our world is vastly different from that world, in others it is nearly identical.
The symmetry represents that, though time as we perceive it has a direction (that breaks the symmetry in some ways). Our causality are the people who touched us and the experiences we had, and we pass those on in those we teach and those who hear our voices. Part of the flowing continuum.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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What I am noting is that unconsciousness does not prevent or preclude involvement in knowing or understanding
I'm talking about the lack of consciousness and not the "subconscious" or "unconscious" operating while we are in a conscious state. It would appear there is no knowing after we die.
Houdini . . .
Are multiple universes like the quantum world? In the "mix" of uncountable universes at each instant we observe causation and physical laws, but if a single universe were to be isolated would it collapse into bizarre irregularities?
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WBraun
climber
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Since you took the single very most important element out of the equation, you deny it and you arrogantly claim it's not needed then your whole method is worthless.
You've remain as caveman posing as learned man ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Time, like an ever-rolling stream
Bears all its sons away :
They fly forgotten, as a dream
Dies at the opening day.
(Isaac Watts)
With the rarest exceptions, the
death of each human individual is
followed in a short time by com-
plete oblivion, so far as living human
memories are concerned.
(Charles W, Eliot in John Gilley of Baker's Island)
TO THE
BRAVE WOMEN
WHO IN
SOLITUDES
AMID STRANGE
DANGERS AND
HEAVY TOIL
REARED FAMILIES
AND MADE HOMES
[from the inscriptions on the water gate at the
world's fair, Chicago]
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jgill and Cintune:
The issue is about learning and whether you are aware directly rather than through conceptual ideas. I say it’s experience. As for that which you don’t know HOW you know it--life, reality-, it's the same thing, but you put these different labels on it (autonomic system, unconscious, subconscious, instinct, pristine awareness). You're making theoretical distinctions.
You both say seem to say that real knowledge is only what you know through ideas and concepts. Hence you eschew the validity of your very own direct experience and apprehension. You say you're aware of the world through intermediary articulations and conceptualizations. I say those are veils.
Every time you denigrate any kind of wisdom that you cannot sense empirically or with thoughts, you hold yourself up for the same denigration as you apply most often to (let's say) religions.
Are you an empiricist or not? Do you trust experience or not? What ISN’T conceptual or theoretical to you?
Thanks, Ed. I didn’t get an answer to my question that I understand, but I appreciate what you said. I probably didn’t ask the question very well.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The spinning head might be a rotating mirror laser scanner (for vision) - commonly used in checkout barcode readers.
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