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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:52am PT
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"burn in hell for eternity"
This is dogmatic bullsh'it.
Every criminal is ultimately freed after serving his/her prison term.
Due to secretarian Christianity dogma not fully understanding the individual soul and how it transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops this "burn in hell for eternity" bullsh'it has arisen.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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Let's not ignore Karl's point:
God and Foolishness about God are two separate things
Upthread a ways Ghost, healyje, and possible others were saying that a compassionate God would not allow humans to suffer in some of ways we do. I agree that the scale of suffering might be reduced a bit, or even a lot, but what would it mean, if anything, if it were eliminated?
In nature there are organisms we figure we could do without, like mosquitos or tapeworms, and we might be right, but if we start picking and choosing and eliminating, we could reach a point at which the ecosystem loses a vital element of diversity we hadn't been aware of. As in the island biogeography David Quammen writes about.
I don't claim to have an answer, but I think it is reasonable to ask what would change if no one was nasty to anyone else and if no one got squashed in earthquakes, drowned in tidal waves, or died on mountains.
Those who state in this thread that God could have a plan that requires terrible things to happen may have a point.
quotes below from Voytek Kurtyka
The Path of the Mountain
in Alpinism volume 1, 1988
Who am I?
Where do I go?
Which way do I follow?
These questions spring from the consciousness of death and the transitoriness of things, and from the sense of omnipresent suffering and from the intellectual helplessness in the face of the common mysteries.
The 'reply' to these questions, when the circumstances [surviving high-altitude near-death?] allowed them to appear, shaped themselves not in words, but in the form of a different state of consciousness, in which the world around took on new colors and qualities. And all the components of this world, even those hardest to accept, like death and suffering, seemed surprisingly proper and irreplaceable.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:25am PT
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hey there all, say, i just this post of mh2...
i sure dont understand the ways of god in the world, only he really does...
but sometimes we can learn a lot by principles seen in nature, the critters, and the weather, and things, etc...
i know we can learn this:
diamonds only develope their way to shine, by a certain pressure process...
pearls only get pressured a certain way, to be created for the lovelyness...
it is little things like this, that show some kind of a process to make things lovely, as to inanimate objects...
*edit: so then, to use this principle to learn of higher ways:
god may know of how the presssure of life, seem to pain us, but yet, are making us to have an inner beauty far more precious than we'd be, if left to our "own wiles of ease" etc...
even we, meaning mankind, knows that crystal vases shine more brighter, when creased, than without...
perhaps the good lord know that his way of creasing our path in life, will make us shine far more greater and lovely, in the forever-after...
the spiritual way, after all, is very different than the earthy way, nearly all folks in the world, even seem to see this...
well, just a few words for us to think on as we daily press on, to overcome in life...
:)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:59am PT
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Mh2-
Thanks so much for the reference to A.C. Grayling. It is a real pleasure to listen to someone so intelligent and articulate whether one agrees or not. I'm trying to decide now which of his books to order.
I personally think he rather over romanticizes the ancient Greeks. All that reason would have seemed pretty irrelevant to a person who was one of their slaves. I also think he blames the church more than he should for the dark ages. They were brought about by the economic overextension of Rome, its decadence, and most especially by the barbarian invasions. At one point Pope Leo V saved the Roman populace from pillage by riding out unarmed to ask for mercy for the city. The raiders were so impressed with his bravery that they spared Rome. It seems to me that the church ended up with political power by default as much as anything, although it certainly abused it later on.
Having said that, I quite liked his distinction between atheism which has a negative connotation of rejection and its substitution with the word naturalism which stands for something instead of against it. I have learned from teaching courses in comparative religion that vocabulary is so important. Particularly in the West it is really difficult to find words to talk about religion that are not inflammatry to someone.
Beyond that, it seems to me that his philosophy pretty much echos what the Dalai Lama has been saying lately as he has taken to emphasizing universal human values rather than Buddhism per se. If two such great minds are thinking along the same lines, then it is a good guess that we are looking at the philosophy if not the religion of the future.
In fact, I heard a very interesting talk at an anthropology conference in China this summer, by a Chinese professor, who spoke on Neo-Confucianism as the answer for China's problems with religion. Rather than calling it secular humanism, he preferred to call it spiritual humanism and thought that it's basic values could serve as the unifying value foundation for all the citizens of China, upon which the ethnic minorities like the Tibetans and Uighurs could lay their own religions.
It was taken for granted by every Sinophile I met at the conference, that China, especially its young people, was suffering from lack of a belief system, having discovered already that rampant materialism doesn't bring the satisfaction they had hoped. Nobody believes in communism any more, but neither they nor the government knows what to replace it with. This Neo-Confucian talk was by the way, the most heavily attended of all the sessions with people sitting on the floor in the aisles and leaning in through the doors and windows.
Interestingly, underground Chinese Christian churches are growing like crazy but so is Chinese interest in Tibetan Buddhism.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:45am PT
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Those who state in this thread that God could have a plan that requires terrible things to happen may have a point.
It's an exceptionally bad plan then. Hell, I could do better.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:00am PT
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WB- "Every prisoner is ultimately freed after serving his or her prison term."
?
Life without the possibility of parole!
Death by Lethal injection!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Jan-
"I quite liked his distinction between atheism which has a negative connotation of rejection and its substitution with the word naturalism which stands for something instead of against it."
Hear, hear!
"I have learned from teaching courses in comparative religion that vocabulary is so important. Particularly in the West it is really difficult to find words to talk about religion that are not inflammatry to someone."
Hear, hear!
If you were impressed with Grayling, you can find him in Beyond Belief, 2008.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/programgroup/beyond-belief
Here you will also find other Beyond Belief seminaries. Beyond Belief 2006 is far and away the best.
What comes out of your piece and also the Beyond Belief work is the need for (a) more constructing and (b) less arguing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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Trip -- Life without the possibility of parole!
Death by Lethal injection!
Death by Lethal injection is the punishment and then that person is freed to start over in next life.
But because you do not understand the soul and how it transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops you think there is only one life.
This is a very serious defect of modern Christianity which causes very serious problems in how Christianity projects it's consciousness onto the world and misleads.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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how it transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness it develops
Geez, Brawny, I thought you said you were an engineer on an earlier thread. Equipped with an engineering mind. Engineers arguably more than other group are supposed to respect the relationship between structure and function.
No body (structure), no soul (function). No brain (structure), no mind (function). Sounds like you very much disregard the state-of-the-art in neuroscience and bio-engineering that's underway today in favor of 2,000 year old Buddha conjecture ("speculation").
Adapt...
Respect the relationship between structure and function...
Some guy in Kansas (Scott Roeder) was just found guilty on all counts for murdering a doctor because he "lived up to" the ancient teaching that there is a ghost in the body that drives the body, that vacates the body upon death of the body, that even though the ghost lives on, God hates it when man causes this separation so much he must be killed for it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
No wonder you're still in the gym.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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umm isn't this supposed to be about the fact that is evolution?
lots of god hate
god love here. is it really worth it to argue the bible?
Most likely cause people don't know sh#t about evolution and don't pull their heads out to find the facts.
Evolution: change in gene frequency in a population.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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So why all the digression off of evolution?
Evolution (or the Epic of Evolution) brings with it a bunch of other ideas:
(a) that this world is not a God Kingdom (most esp as laid out in the Abrahamic bibles), (b) that there is no "ghost in the machine," that life is physics and chemistry and is flesh-based, flesh-driven, (c) that the basis of good and evil is a natural one, a consequence of Mother Nature unfolding.
It's all this together that's just Damn Hard to adapt to. Made all the harder when American culture has a powerful narrative (ancient theology) pulling all of us in another direction.
Growing pains. A part of all this is growing pains. My dad used to say, when supernaturalist belief (i.e., ancient theology that's so appealing on so many levels) is in your blood, it's next to impossible to get it out. Takes great work.
But climbers are "into" great work. So it's reasonable to be hopeful.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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delusional morons who believe in ghosts.
oh that's perfect for a tee shirt!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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This thread has caused me to be curious about new things.
There are many experts who have studied for years, but humor me, a mere child.
An excerpt:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_story_of_when_buddhism_began
It should be noted that the buddha is not a god nor did he ever say he was. He lived and died like any other person on earth. He was enlightened which made him free from suffering and free from the ignorance of the cause of suffering but he was no more a god than you.
When asked about the question of if there is a god, Budda replied that the question is unimportant. You can not know if there is or isn't a god, you can only serve to reduce your own suffering and the suffering of those around you. Buddha neither denied or confirmed the existence of a god.
Excerpt from Wikipedia:
Siddh?rtha Gautama (Sanskrit; Pali: Siddh?ttha Gotama) was a spiritual teacher from ancient India and the historical founder of Buddhism. He is universally recognized by Buddhists as the Supreme Buddha of our age. The time of his birth and death are uncertain: a majority of 20th century historians date his lifetime from circa 563 BCE to 483 BCE, while some more recent scholars have suggested dates around 410 or 400 BCE for his passing away. This alternative chronology has not yet been accepted by other historians.
Answer
Siddhartha Gautama, (Prince Siddhartha of the Guatama clan ca. 563-483 BC) known as "the buddha" which means "the enlightened one". All buddhists are considered "the buddha" or enlightened ones, if they are successful in the philosophy.
He is not a deity, merely the founder of a school of philosophy based in part on hindu beliefs. He is not worshipped, and statues of buddha are symbolic of different philosophies.
Answer
The realization that the mind is the source of all experience.
Answer
The word 'Buddha' is the past participle of the Pali word bujjhati which means 'awakening' in the sense of arising from the slumber of lower being thus realizing nirvana. Curiously, bujjhati is very much akin to the Greek word anastasis which is usually translated by Christians as 'resurrection'. Anastasis literally means to stand up as in awakening from sleep.
End excerpt
I like this!
No ridiculous infinitely superior beings or absurd stories.
Threatening me if I do not obey someone who, like me, is yet walking around. A person who comes out of nowhere and asserts I need to obey HIM.
And the emphasis is on learning. Improving yourself.
Not fighting with others for gosh who know’s what and for someone else’s benefit.
Maybe this is what HFCS is seeking?
I can even understand the mind being the source of all experience. The material world is experienced through the mind. It is interpreted, translated by the mind. The mind is not the material world. The mind is a tool. Indeed in scientific work you spend half your time trying to root out unrecognized bias. The mind is not a “perfect” tool.
Would you believe it?
A philosophy for adults!
If Buddhism had been called a philosophy instead of a religion, I would have looked it up a long time ago.
Goes to show you.
You just shouldn’t describe something good
using a bad word.
Most valuable thread I have seen on ST.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Are you SURE the bible was NOT written by HUMANS?
Would GOD REALLY SAY THIS STUPID ASS STUFF?
GOD Commands His Followers to KILL Damn Near Everything
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
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Jstan- Agree with everything you wrote in the post.
Indeed, one of my interests is the role language plays in all this. It can be so tricky-- like route finding on Fantasia at the Leap, Tahoe.
Yeah, many Buddhist scholars prefer the terms education or philosophy in lieu of religion for their belief discipline.
I think it's helpful to distinguish between Original Buddhism and other later, agrandized variants. Many of the latter have deified the Buddha and this has really mucked things up.
What I seek is (1) to distinguish between supernaturalist belief (as maintained by religions) and naturalist belief (under a new name) and (2) to bring innovation to belief based on the modern understanding of things. For one thing, this means more attention to modeling (to building) and less attention to arguing with the supernaturalists.
You say-
And the emphasis is on learning. Improving yourself.
Sounds like a fine organizing principle right there! on which to build a new belief discipline... Under a new name of course...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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C'mon, Norton, quit with all that.
Let's talk about constructing anew...
And who are you responding to. Do you read the thread?
EDIT Sorry Norton. Carry on!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Norton:
In my last post I neglected to thank you for starting this thread.
Thank you.
HFCS:
Lo these past few weeks I have been ragging on people mercilessly about language. We can't use the words "believe" or "design" anymore. They have been stolen and their meaning changed. People have been saying certain mormons and now catholics are not christian. The word has no meaning. So now I have to say "That Religion."
When I look at what very little I know about "That Religion" and other philosophies something eerie creeps out. As I said, it seems to me Buddhism is structured and packaged for adults. The outlandish story, hell, original sin, snakes, and the huge emphasis on obedience of that religion strikes me as packaging for exposure to very young children. I would bet eighty to ninety percent of lifelong followers of that religion begin at a very early age.
Very eerie.
And directly on topic for this thread.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Wes- "It is now a question of specifics...Basics of evolution, quite easily understood."
Please, specifically explain how something came from nothing. Just the basic question of where did it ORIGINATE!
Wes- "Bunch of delusional morons who believe in ghosts"
What about a bunch of delusional Atheist/evolutionist that believe something(matter)came from nothing! How so? Takes allot of FAITH to BELIEVE that Wes.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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Takes allot of FAITH to BELIEVE that Wes
Reframe it! In the new frame: "Takes a lot of trust to "hold" that, Wes." That's right. But it is a trust (aka faith) based on education and experience. Maybe even decades in the making. It's not a weak blind trust (or faith) that supernaturalists have formulated to their own purposes.
Trip- you need to go to school in the sciences... at least long enough and deep enough to learn what is in their baliwick and what is not.
The cause behind the big bang (a Higher Power, if you like) and Yahweh (the local desert God of the Hebrew people and the Star of the Books of Moses, cf: Amon-Re, Zeus, Marduk, Quetzalcoatl, etc.) are as different as lightning and the lightning bug.
Adapt.
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