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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 27, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Weschrist, I see and hear those same people, and feel like they're just living their lives to the best of their abilities. I don't feel that I have any bitterness in me that comes from them.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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It's the business about the apple, David.
Apparently god has, himself, not yet gotten forgiveness down pat.
God has, even now, not forgiven Adam and Eve.(added for clarity)
It really is amazing. How hard it is to construct something that has no logical flaws. The apple construct can be nullified simply by asking why god can't forgive.
It's the questions. We just cannot be allowed to ask questions.
Obedience has to be at the very heart of any belief system.
Obedience is irrelevant in the real(material) world. I can do anything I want. I just need to be ready to pay the consequences.
Ghost asked why the Haitians had to be crushed under concrete. I do not "know." Nor do I "believe" I know. Here's a hypothesis though.
Ardi suggests during its evolution homo sapiens first lost their large canines and then stood upright. As a result we could neither run very fast nor could we fight back. A lot of us got eaten so we had not only to be able to reproduce rapidly but we had to want to reproduce - a lot. A whole lot. It was the sabre tooth tiger that made Marilyn Monroe and even Sarah Palin possible. The Haitians were crushed under concrete because they have reproduced so profusely that they cannot afford rebar. The best we could have done to make this not happen would have been to travel to Haiti every weekend with 100 pounds of condoms in our suitcases. Maybe even have taken some rebar along with us. The US government had a program to help disseminate family planning. But some guy who claimed he talked to god killed the program.
So there you go.
We have a witness telling us god intended these people to die like that.
Quite some time ago I suggested one of two possibilities may be true if a god actually exists.
God has no power on earth or
God isn't very nice.
Since we have never gotten any proof that god has power to do anything on earth, I have felt if god exists, he probably can do things only in heaven.
If George Bush, who killed family planning, actually was talking to god, as have some others on this thread, I will be forced to consider more seriously the second possibility.
Now the really really serious question. We have a hypothesis as to what made Sarah Palin possible.
Are we ready to approach the question of what it is that made her necessary?
Edit:
777 tells me below Adam and Eve have been forgiven.
So "Original Sin" is now gone!
Wonderful. So as long as I behave well I don't need to believe in god. I can go directly to heaven.
Does this also mean Ratzinger has reconsidered and has now affirmed Pope John's apologeia for the punishment of Galileo?
If god has forgiven Adam and Eve surely we, finally, can release Galileo from house arrest?
I wonder. Is it ridicule to ask that Galileo receive justice? Is it ridicule to ask what it is that actually can be done to keep people from being crushed?
Is it ridicule to ask a question?
It would seem so.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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jstan- "Why can't god forgive?"
God has forgiven. Read John 3:16-17.
You reject His forgiveness, John.
He would never force you to accept His forgiveness.
Your choice, John.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 27, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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cintune, You clearly have no concept of the heart of God.
Your rants are inane and reek of hate.
In spite of the hate, foulness, and ridicule spewed by many on this thread, I still find myself feeling sorry for you.
Good luck with your choices.
That's just precious. We feel sorry for you too. Let's all feel sorry for each other.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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I suggest we all take a time out
and watch a most excellent documentary.
Nietzsche and the Nazis
It's very good. How did I ever miss it?
Available at netflix. Check it out.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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My short term memory is unreliable but as I remember Mr. Cragman travels to Central America so that he might help the people there gain decent housing.
Without a doubt, anyone who does that has a good heart. He may be a poor shot at driving rebar into the ground, but he has a good heart. I would not be nearly as perturbed as I am if he had a bad heart.
The problem is he could be more helpful to Central Americans if he had the freedom to think for himself. I was not kidding when I said people can sometimes be in more need of condoms and rebar than they are of scripture readings. The Neanderthal were able to bring down mastadons using wooden sticks, simply because they were able to work together.
It's a shame we have lost that ability.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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That's projecting and demonizing.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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You can help them more. If the kids do not have good schools teach them the three R's in the evening. If you can get them up to algebra you may find a genius.
My best,
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 27, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Ghost,"If God is capable of creating the entire universe, and so loving that he gave his only begotten son, then what am I to think when a serial killer tortures a child for days? Or when an earthquake kills over 100,000 in Haiti (with many of them taking days to die)?"
If you do good or bad, you did it, same with the serial killer! God tells us to do good!
The physical world is dynamic not static, the mountains can be rising (like Mt. Everest) and crumbling, I've been in Yosemite during big rock fall! I lived through the Los Angeles '71 and '94 earthquakes and were sure to have another! In the Haiti quake, most the deaths happened because their man made buildings fell down! But many nations are trying to help! We always have bad fire seasons, mostly caused by man! I love Hawaii, but it's a volcano, it could blow? I don't blame God for these natural occurrences they happen! Heck, were on a big ball flying around in space, think about it! If we were weightless on earth there would be no Supertopo, because who would care to go climbing? If you freesolo and fall...If you step in front of a speeding car...the world can kill you, but God is not chasing you down to harm you, He's chasing you down to love you!
Proverbs 28:1, The wicked flee when no one pursues,
but the righteous are bold as a lion.
The Lord Is My Strength and My Shield
Of David.
Psalm 28, To you, O Lord, I call;
my rock, be not deaf to me,
lest, if you be silent to me,
I become like those who go down to the pit.
2 Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy,
when I cry to you for help,
when I lift up my hands
toward your most holy sanctuary.
3 Do not drag me off with the wicked,
with the workers of evil,
who speak peace with their neighbors
while evil is in their hearts.
4 Give to them according to their work
and according to the evil of their deeds;
give to them according to the work of their hands;
render them their due reward.
5 Because they do not regard the works of the Lord
or the work of his hands,
he will tear them down and build them up no more.
6 Blessed be the Lord!
For he has heard the voice of my pleas for mercy.
7 The Lord is my strength and my shield;
in him my heart trusts, and I am helped;
my heart exults,
and with my song I give thanks to him.
8 The Lord is the strength of his people;
he is the saving refuge of his anointed.
9 Oh, save your people and bless your heritage!
Be their shepherd and carry them forever.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 28, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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The reason no one can come to a conclusion or change their mind after 5,500 posts is that we were never discussing the same thing anyway. The science people are arguing from left brain logic and the religious people are arguing from intuition and emotion. Some people prefer physics and some people prefer poetry. Seldom do you hear a physicist screaming that poetry is stupid and all poets are retards. Likewise, poets don't normally shout at physicists that they're inferior because they prefer math over words. They keep to their own respective preferences.
When poets leave physicists alone and vice versa, there is no communication, but also no controversy. Why this should be has a lot to do with history. Physicists have not persecuted poets and vice versa because neither one of them have had any particular political power. Had either of them waged wars or inquisitions, their feelings would be different.
Absent any such past history, the other major cause of disagreement would be when they infringe on each other's field of expertise. Neither are in any position to evaluate the merits of the work of the other. They can state their taste in physics explanations or poetry, but they can not critique from a professional insider's point of view. If they're smart, they know their limitations.
Once we enter into a science versus religious argument however, everyone becomes antagonistic because of history, because of ongoing power struggles, and because everyone involved seems to think they know more about the expertise of the other than they actually do. They also delight it seems, in provoking each other in games of gotcha as they seek to establish their own knowledge as superior - we are logical vs we are saved.
How could we avoid such battles?
-don't use provocative language starting with the titles of threads
-don't argue on the basis of personal insults
-don't argue at all (scientists have their own thread and religious people their own and spiritual people who are not religious their own)
-religious people stay out of the science curriculum of our schools and the dispensing of birth control
-scientists stop thinking that logic can solve every human problem and is the only thing necessary to life for an intelligent person.
-religious people work on their intellect more (especially their knowledge of science and history) and science people work on opening their hearts and pocketbooks more to those less fortunate.
-both sides be aware that this is a peculiarly American argument at this point in history and not particularly conducive to solving any of our many national problems
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MH2
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 04:12am PT
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What Jan said, more or less.
Without naming names or quoting, I will say I have noticed an occasional poster saying that the questions we consider here go round and round and little to no progress has been seen for hundreds or thousands of years.
I see it differently. Developments from the idea of evolution have provided excellent explanations of why we find what we find in the biological world, displacing a lot of earlier mystical and religious attempts to answer questions. Cosmology has done a similar job more recently for the physical world, providing a coherent, consistent, though not complete explanantion of how the entire universe came to be.
Anyone who thinks religion and science are in a stand-off is ignoring the inroads on religious dogma that have been made by evolution and cosmology.
But, as Jan says, there is no battle between science and religion when they have no claim on the same territory. When religion promotes helping your fellow man, as it often does, science and reason have no quarrel with it.
At the same time, it is hard to ignore the harm that certain kinds of religious belief continue to do.
a link to a podcast featuring A.C. Grayling:
http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podcasts/33624
addendum
from Jan:
-scientists stop thinking that logic can solve every human problem and is the only thing necessary to life for an intelligent person.
I think that scientists might promote reason as an approach to problem-solving, but not logic. Logic is not what Spock uses. Logic is deductive or inductive and needs pretty restrictive premises to get anywhere and no one uses real Logic in daily life unless they are teachers of Mathematical Logic (perhaps the world's least understood field), or philosophers and who cares what they do? As one of the old-timers demonstrated, logic can't even solve its own problems, at least not all of them, let alone a human problem.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 28, 2010 - 07:56am PT
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We don't see scientists running into churches and insisting that their areas of expertise be worked into the sermon. That is the original point of this thread. Creationism is a political agenda to introduce thinly-veiled religious dogma into science classrooms in the public schools. Norton's excellently provocative title stirred up the religiously-inclined posters here, who immediately started changing the subject to the ethical merits of their faith, and of course the non-believers couldn't let that go either.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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If both Science and Religion agree there is such a think as Love
Where is the scale with which we test and measure it?
I'm skeptical of any limited concepts of what God "Wants" or "Did"
But I'm comfortable offering my Life a the feet of Love
and I have Faith that opening to Love brings in the Light
A light that erases doubt about the existence of Spirit, and any question of judgement or damnation. The Love Light shines but we close our eyes in fear. The Fear projects judgement and Damnation. Love embraces and integrates unconditionally.
Know where your Heart is at. Forgive everything that divides you from feeling unified and present in your heart.
Then the question of God will never arise.
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 28, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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"...and the religious people are arguing from intuition and emotion"
That's B.S.
The science people have emotion and have intuition. My intuition tells me there is no God. Your intuition tells you that there is a God. We do not think differently. We just think different thoughts. Our thought difference comes from our environment, training by our parents and peers, and a bit of built-in instinct for self-preservation. Oh, and of course God talks to some of you from the back seat of your car to help you avoid accidents. That also affects some of your thoughts.
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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You can't. Time to move on!
It's time we stopped arguing.
It's time we built for ourselves a science-based belief system.
Yeah, a science-based belief system that covers:
(a) how the world works, (b) how life works, (c) how humans ought to live.
Who's ready. Let's go for it!
Edit:
I know, we'll call these new models "superduction".
Then we'll let the ol'time religions and modern superductions compete in the marketplace of ideas and beliefs.
Just like horse n buggies and horseless carriages competed.
And we'll do all this in the interest of better living.
May the best belief system win!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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May the best belief system win!
Stupid system ever.
Belief means ultimately speculation. Means you ultimately you don't know.
If everyone believes there's a giraffe behind the building and there never is one then what kind of stupid system is that.
Bonafide absolute truth is the only applicable system that will ultimately work.
Summon Bonum
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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No silly. Speculation means speculation. To speculate means to speculate.
To "believe" means to "hold" in one's mind. Straight-forward as that.
Only ol' time religious framing makes a mess of it. Of language that is.
When I say, I "believe" my half-inch rope will hold me on take 300' above deck, it means I hold in it, I trust in it. And this is based on education and experience.
Sorry, Brawny...
Face it, you just can't give up your archaic "ghost in the machine" idea, belief. You're too heavily invested in it. Advice: Spend your limited energies adapting to-- not fighting-- the truth as revealed by science edu.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Yes hold your speculation pertaining to your; "May the best belief system win!"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Secular humanism is so 19th century, so kludgy and overwrought.
The difference between secular humanism and what I have in mind (a modern "superduction") is the difference between lightning and the lightening bug. It's the difference between 15th century philosophy as a discipline and 21st century engineering as a discipline.
What, don't believe. Wait and see. It's right around the corner! Keep the faith.
Oh, and reframe it! Secular humanism doesn't lead to despair. Nature's seamy if not sleazy side leads to despair. So we need a "modern superduction" or "modern spiritual discipline" to help us deal with it. Religion as an "early model" belief discipline made attempts to deal with it through fantasy.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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Religion is secretarian.
Summon Bonum, Absolute Truth, exists eternally always as, past, present and in the future.
Manufacturing a system by man is ultimately defective.
A condition human being is infected with the four defects.
1) Is sure to commit mistakes
2) Is invariably illusioned
3) Has the tendency to cheat others
4) Is limited by imperfect senses.
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