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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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Lynne-
Once again we find ourselves in a common situation! I too have to get my IRS filed by Oct. 15 as there are no more extensions left. My story is that I misplaced my W-4 and thought I would find it by now. Put it somewhere so safe, I've forgotten where (if only my house weren't being renovated). I just hate to give up and ask my employer for another copy, especially since I don't owe any tax.
Meanwhile, in Okinawa, when stuff goes missing we blame it on a mischeivious elf named Kijimuna. He seems to be especially fond of me!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:20am PT
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So Jan, when I put something in a safe place it is always the obvious, smart place, the organized place.....then I generally out think myself. So just think, where would I put this ....you will find it.
Kijimuna is not just a guest of mine, but a regular in my home. :DDD
Edit: Jan I will read your links, but lots of life happening so if I do not do it soon have patience. Peace from a friend.......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 04:27am PT
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Lynne-
I owe you an email anyway.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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Jennie wrote: I wouldn’t place a decent person such as Lynne in the same category as a headline making serial killer who claims to be hearing voices from heaven. Why characterize ALL religious people together with those who broadcast their rapport with God yet conduct themselves unjustly toward their fellow humans?
Similarly, why collate the deeds of criminal atheists with the greater part of the atheist population who live by community law and deal with others fairly?
You're just defining bad people who love Jesus out of existence! You're claiming that if they are "real" Christians, that they couldn't possibly be bad people. That may help keep your numbers looking good, but can't you see how ridiculous it sounds?
See, here's the thing - some other religions don't work like this, but most Christian sects define a Christian as someone who has accepted Jesus as his/her personal savior. Period. You have NO right to claim that someone isn't a Christian when she says she is. NONE. It's antithetical to the very roots of your religion to do so.
On to your next point. As an atheist, I have no problem with the fact that some other atheists have done heinous crimes. My atheism is not a "tribe" in which I claim that "we" are good and "others" are wicked. I have no use for such nonsense. A person is as good or bad as their actions. Period. Which/how many gods they claim to believe in has nothing to do with it.
Now, could it be that more Atheists are, on average, good, and more religious people are, on average, more wicked? (Or vice versa.) Perhaps. But if so, attributing causality (did their religion make them wicked, did their wickedness drive them to religion, or did some third factor cause both their wickedness and their religion) is impossible to determine. And claiming to know how that causality works for the world population is clearly ridiculous.
Cheers,
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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Fattrad, I'm not even going to get into the whole long history of Jewish Atheists. Then again, I don't think you'd like them - probably consider them all commies and socialists.
GO
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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"God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!"
If you could harness the energy of the cognitive dissonance required to write the above, you'd be able to power the entire western U.S. for a month or two.
You describe a situation where there are natural laws created outside the dictates of your GOD, which GOD must obey (in this case some weird dictate that sins must be forgiven for us to be with god, neatly skipping the obvious fact that God could forgive anyone for any reason with no sacrificial bloodshed required. After all, who does he answer to? The fact that your GOD is bound by a law which he is not free to violate thereby renders him/it less than all-powerful and by that definition perhaps not "GOD" at all.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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Makes sense to me, but then I've read about Christ from India's perspective already (see my own book recommendations above).
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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Dr F -- "As evolution has revealed, that everything starts at the bottom, and as it evolves (or progresses) forward, it become more complex."
"Therefore there is no God at the top, above it all making anything happening"
The sun is the king of the planets, the materialist can understand this simple fact.
Without the illumination of the sun first Dr F would never even begin to have any knowledge whatsoever .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Is there any reason to treat creationism as anything more than superstious nonsense?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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I could not find the source for this:
"God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!"
This requires some interpretation (added).
"God didn't have to send his Son but then(in that case) we could (would) not be with Him(God) because are(our) sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy)(sic). So God sent His Son Jesus who new (knew) no sin, because He (God) LOVES US and wants us to be with Him (God)!"
I call attention to Lincoln's rebuke of Stephen Douglass's claim that Lincoln "wanted" to destroy slavery. In the debates Lincoln said something like(I know you are out there Kerwin), "When the Honorable Senator Douglass tells you my intention, he tells you something he cannot know."
We have no way of knowing God's intention. It may be God felt Jesus was a good money manager and that that talent was more needed on earth than it was in Heaven (cf. George Carlin).
There may well be more that can be said about this quote but its logical constructs are more than I can handle right now. Perhaps later.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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Dr. F, How come no one thanked the devil for winning the climbing comp?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Only in a polarized (part cutting edge, part medieval) country like America would a post like this generate so much debate.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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"Name on thing that started out already fully formed, and did not undergo evolution or change?"
You have to be kidding Dr. F?
Log on to supertopo. Click on just about anything.
And yes, Jim has a point. One question though.
How do I get rid of this big black swelling on my neck?
Its beginning to hurt.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Dr F -- Name on thing that started out already fully formed, and did not undergo evolution or change?
God
From Bg: introduction:
The subject of the Bhagavad-gītā entails the comprehension of five basic truths.
First of all, the science of God is explained and then the constitutional position of the living entities, jīvas.
There is īśvara, which means controller, and there are jīvas, the living entities which are controlled.
If a living entity says that he is not controlled but that he is free, then he is insane.
The living being is controlled in every respect, at least in his conditioned life.
So in the Bhagavad-gītā the subject matter deals with the īśvara, the supreme controller, and the jīvas, the controlled living entities.
Prakṛti (material nature) and time (the duration of existence of the whole universe or the manifestation of material nature) and karma (activity) are also discussed.
The cosmic manifestation is full of different activities. All living entities are engaged in different activities.
From Bhagavad-gītā we must learn what God is, what the living entities are, what prakrti is, what the cosmic manifestation is and how it is controlled by time, and what the activities of the living entities are.
So we have your argument,Dr F, and the Veda, which will it be, the absolute truth?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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jstan-
It's only when your tongue turns black and you start to grow horns that you have to worry!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Whew! I was getting worried Jan. Everyone coming into my room has been wearing these chicken beak masks.
And yes Dr. F. Lots of change here. Jeff has already indicated he is up for being Secretary of the Treasury under Obama.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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I agree that, "God is not subordinate to anyone, he always maintains his absolute Supremacy."
Jesus was the only one to rise from the dead (on the third day), except whom He raised Himself (Lazarus).
Only God can do that! When He healed the blind, sick, and lame, sometimes before He did, He said your sins are forgiven, and definitely only God can do that!
I know I do the sinning and He does the forgiving!
"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
When Jesus said that He was saying that He was always with God? Jesus was Son of God and son of man.
I was born in 1956, and know nothing before that, and very little of my early years? I'm only human, but still I'm a child of God! If I go to be with Him in His future kingdom, I will have nothing to do with that except to take Him at His word that Jesus is my only hope! There's more to life then stuffing are pie holes?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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"god" is a construct, a creation of human minds.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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I like the term God, but ok a name is just a name, call it what you will, but whatever created EVERYTHING, is AMAZING!
Or just happened... and we walk on two feet because we wanted to have sex, and so to get it, the men had to go to work and the women stayed home, sorry lady's make me a sandwich, see Ardi!
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