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apogee
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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AndyG....are we not all "moral inferiors" ? We all have our short comings and none of us are perfect. I know I certainly miss the mark of doing all that is right on a day to day basis.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Hey, I have Jesus in a piece of toast beat by a long shot:
How about Jesus in a meteorite!!??
I actually bought this meteorite immediately when I first saw it because I noticed the effect of pareidolia almost instantly. It is one of my favorite pieces of the famous Sikhote-Alin witnessed Fe meteorite. I will never sell it. I will pass it on to my children as a family heirloom. Unless the King of Kings comes back sooner.
Edit:
By the way, this is a test. If you don't see Jesus uh, oh . . . that means . . .
Just kidding. Some people see him and others don't.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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There are 3 major modes.
ignorance, passion and goodness.
The theist and atheist both operate their morals within these 3 modes. These modes exhibit reactions accordingly.
But there is another mode that transcends these 3 and that is pure goodness which has no material reaction.
This is the real platform which the soul is freed from repeated birth and death into the material creation.
Mode of goodness can elevate one up into the upper planetary systems (Christians call heaven) in it's next life but it's still material and once the lifespan there is finished they fall back down.
Heaven is not the designation wanted by liberated souls freed from all material contamination.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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Howweird,
In the words of one of our recently departed American sidekicks:
"you are correct, sir"
Yes, religion has done all that. Again, I'm not talking about religion. The religious and political powers put him do death. It was the religious system that handed him over. We've seen it in recent times. When you get religion mixed with politics, it always goes that way. When you have people wanting to belong to the right group, the government will certainly take advantage of delivering the goods to get what it wants from the people. I'm, personally, not a religious-right person. People would rather try to belong to the "right group". That is just lazy. It's how cults and the big religions are made. It takes a bit more to walk in a relationship. Hence, the narrow gate.
I mean, you could marry someone and ignore her all the rest of your life. That's what religion is, joining a group, going through the motions, no real relationship. But, I think you already know these things. I have never attacked people who don't believe. In an earlier post, I mentioned I have a real love for people who refer to themselves as atheists. My oldest son was for most of his life. I didn't force anything on him. You simply can't. I didn't argue with him. I listened to his honest, ideas.
God did the work in his life. It was an amazing thing to see.
As far as what "right and wrong" is, most cultures throughout time agree far more than disagree. Until relatively recent times, it was called the "law of nature". Any political science course covers this (different from natural law). As I mentioned before, I'm talking about a relationship, not self-enlightenment, not a religion. A real, living relationship with the very, living God.
BTW, the question of whether people other than Christians are capable of doing good things, or not, was not posed by me. The topic of religion has not been in my comments, other than to say if you don't like religion, you're in good company. Jesus didn't either. You're right to make these things clear. Pure religion, according to Jesus is a very active thing. That is, in everything you do, "give a cup of water to the least of these". This, in a time of serious cultural distinctions and prejudices, like now,throughout the whole world. But, this is what is done in gratitude to God, it shows you have a relationship with Him, it's because of God's free gift of grace. We're not saved by works. You know this already, it's what we've been discussing.
I'm just stating my own position, like you guys are. It's important to challenge it, I welcome you doing so.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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But, what about the atheists?
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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I think the food-fight is part of the culture of the community. I've been around it for a long time, like Evita, I never really left you. I don't take it seriously. Sometimes it's someone trying to make a point with a slam-dunk. It seems like, when the dust clears from the discussion, a new really intelligent version emerges.
Edit: Dr. F. Proof is a very comprehensive word. The most brilliant scientific minds use it sparingly. As for evolution, that, also, is a belief system. The scientific method has rules. Please don't make the assumption that because someone is a Christian, they ignore science. That would be confusing it again with religion. The world being flat, and all, came from the religious views. The Old Testament supports the universe as we know it and the earth's orbit as well as it being a sphere. Just mentioning this because it was posted earlier.
Howweird, when I began my relationship with God, I wasn't in what I would call a conscious need of something. I can tell you later, but right now, I'm off to Yosemite myself. Catch up with you when I come back!
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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I just saw your question so I'll bite before I get in the car.
Been there already. Not hypothetically.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Cragman, what if YOU are wrong?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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More like 5000 years, but no matter. It's actually pretty cool how much ayurvedic dogma has been worked out by modern science; they were definitely on to a bunch of things, but like most early efforts to understand the universe they tended to fill in the blanks with made-up stuff. It's only natural.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Atheists sue over "In god we trust"
By Rob Hotakainen, McClatchy Newspapers Rob Hotakainen, Mcclatchy Newspapers – Sat Jul 18, 6:00 am ET
WASHINGTON — A California Republican congressman wants to do a little writing on the walls of Washington's newest federal building. If Rep. Dan Lungren gets his way, Congress will spend nearly $100,000 to engrave the words "In God We Trust " and the Pledge of Allegiance in prominent spots at the Capitol Visitor Center .
Lungren's proposal drew only a whimper of opposition last week when the House of Representatives voted 410-8 to approve it. Now, however, Lungren finds himself tussling with a national atheists and agnostics group.
The Wisconsin -based Freedom From Religion Foundation Inc. sued this week to stop the engraving, accusing Lungren of trying to force his religious beliefs on as many as 15 percent of all U.S. adults. That comprises "atheists, agnostics, skeptics and freethinkers, none of whom possess a belief in a god," according to the lawsuit.
"It really is a Judeo-Christian endorsement by our government, and so Lungren is wrong," said Dan Barker of Madison, Wis. , a co-president of the foundation. "Lungren and others are pro-religious, and they want to actually use the machinery of government to promote their particular private religious views. That is unconstitutional, and that's what we're asking the court to decide."
The Senate has approved a similar plan introduced by Republican Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina . The congressional directive orders the Capitol architect to make the changes in the design of the $621 million center, which opened last December.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation , which has 13,500 members, sued in U.S. District Court in Wisconsin . It alleges that Congress is trying to make belief in God synonymous with citizenship and "discouraging nonbelief" among Americans, a contention that Lungren rejects.
Lungren said that the phrase "In God We Trust " had a long history and was consistent with the beliefs of America's founding fathers. He also said that the Declaration of Independence referred to rights given by a creator.
Lungren, a former California attorney general, said that while the proposed engravings incorporated religious references, they didn't violate the Constitution.
"What we're doing is making a specific historical reference to the beginnings of this republic," he said. "To ignore this or to forbid this statement or something like it to appear is to distort history. . . . We're not trying to change history. We're trying to enshrine history in the Capitol Visitor Center ."
Barker said history was better left to others.
"It's not the job of our government and our government buildings to do that," he said. "Historians can point out that many of our founders were indeed religious. But saying 'In God We Trust' in the visitors center of the Capitol is not just some historical reference. It's actually government speaking for all of us Americans."
Barker said the foundation had been waiting for the right case to challenge "In God We Trust ." He said government actions could be challenged on state-church grounds if they had specific religious agendas. In this case, he said, backers of Lungren's plan have provided "the smoking guns" by giving specific, overt religious reasons for doing the engraving.
Barker said that atheists regarded the phrase "In God We Trust " as rude, uncivil and un-American.
"Tens of millions of really good Americans don't believe in God," he said. "In fact, there's many more nonbelievers than there are Jews, and we wouldn't think of offending Jews on our national monuments. . . . Why is it wrong to offend a Jewish minority but it's not wrong to offend those of us who serve in the military and sit on juries but we don't believe in God?"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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Pope 'can't pray' with wrist in plaster
(AFP) – 6 hours ago
AOSTA, Italy — Pope Benedict XVI celebrated mass Saturday with his broken wrist in plaster but bemoaned an inability to clasp his hands together in prayer, his closest officials said.
"He is learning to live with a right wrist in plaster," Federico Lombardi told AFP, the day after the pope was hospitalised after a fall while on holiday. "The most difficult thing for him is having to give up writing."
Lombardi said the 82-year-old pontiff, who is on a two-week holiday in northern Italy, had slept well and would fly by helicopter on Sunday as planned to Romano Canavese, in the nearby Piedmont region, to recite the evening Angelus prayer.
Lombardi said the rest of the pope's programme during his vacation, which is due to end on July 29, was also unchanged.
Some 10,000 people are expected at the ceremony in the town, the birthplace of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican number two.
Bertone told ANSA news agency that the inability to write would hold up progress on Pope Benedict's follow-up to his 2007 book entitled "Jesus of Nazareth."
"The pope already had the text's structure outlined in his head," Bertone said.
He added that Pope Benedict had told him he was feeling pain but that "some suffering is not a bad thing. What pains him the most is to be no longer able to bless with his right hand and to be no longer able to clasp his hands together" in prayer.
After the daily mass, Pope Benedict went for a stroll.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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"some suffering is not a bad thing"
the Pope
so, maybe more suffering would be a better thing?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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True, Dr.F,
and extreme Islamists also want world domination, by them
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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"Life is Suffering"
again as the Shinto priest reflected to Joseph Campbell,
"We have no idiology,
we have no theology,
we just dance."
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 18, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Lynne,
I did not say that anybody is perfect. Of course not. No one ever has been. I am not sure you understand my use of the word inferior. It is a comparator. One thing (a persons morality) is inferior, ie in a lower position or of lower rank, quality, etc than another. That doesn't mean that the person that has superior (opposite of inferior) morals is perfect, just that they have better morals. If there is a continuum they are higher on the continuum, not necessarily at the top. For example, if one person just inherently understands that murder is wrong and another person doesn't inherently understand that murder is wrong but only understands that murder is wrong because she read in the bible that it is wrong (though as an aside, there is one hell of a lot of murdering going on in the bible), then the second person has a less developed sense of morality, ie an inferior sense of morality.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 18, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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"Life is suffering." Yes.
Joyful participation in a world of sorrows...It's all we can do.
Why is it that virtually all world religions see the world/nature/the earth as something diminished, in error, cursed, a thorny manifestation of original sin?
Maybe, just maybe we live in the best of all possible worlds. A world created out of indifference which our very evolution deems best for us, perhaps even perfect.
God is just the aetiological myth through which our pain is made reasonable/understandable.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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A well-known story: in Brazil a nine-year old girl was raped by her stepfather and became pregnant with twins. Her family took her to have an abortion and lo and behold! the Catholic Church, that kind, gentle, benevolent shepherd of the souls of humanity, prounounces an 'automatic excommunication' against the doctor and the parents.
A few months later, the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano felt the need to clarify their position, apparently feeling they were taking too much of a beating in the press. Here's what the Holy See had to say:
...the girl should have been defended, hugged and held tenderly to help her feel that we were all on her side...We have laws, we have a discipline, we have a doctrine of the faith. This is not just theory. And you can't start backpedaling just because the real-life situation carries a certain human weight."
Far be it for real life to intrude upon the medieval dogma of 21st century Catholicism. The article didn't say anything about the stepfather being automatically excommunicated...apparently raping children falls lower on the Catholic Church's hierarchy of sins than having an abortion.
The real tragedy here, aside from the grievous trauma inflicted on the poor girl, is that the Church is continuing to inflict more damage to the poor child. Assuming for a moment that the family and the girl are true-believing Catholics, and not just CINOs, then this girl, on top of having to deal with her rape, is now worried that her mother and father will be roasting in a lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity. As if she didn't have enough to deal with, she (and her parents) now have this on their plate as well. Fortunately for her, as she is not 18, automatic excommuncation does not apply to her, although I'm not sure if she'll be automatically excommunicated upon her 18th birthday. Never having been a Catholic, I'm not sure how all this works.
No surprise of course: if one were to compile a list of grievances, of butcheries, massacres, genocides, tortures and all categories of affronts to humanity perpetrated by the Catholic Church throughout history, this would fall far down the list. The 'benevolent' Pope Benedict has made it clear that dogma is still indeed far more important than the actual end-result of the church's actions in the lives of its parishioners.
As an atheist, I see the ultimate sadness is that people believe any of this garbage at all, that they refuse to open their eyes and think for themselves, and instead continue to allow their lives to be destroyed by a mindless, dogmatic, soul-sucking organization. It's no wonder they're hemorrhaging worshipers at an alarming rate.
dk
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