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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 10, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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Venus doesn't really influence anything besides those that want to think is does
How is it helpful to some?
it certainly doesn't effect atheists/skeptics
Speaking of not comprehending:
You should ask yourself how a painting like that, of a pagan deity, could be done under the eyes of the inquisition in strictly Catholic Italy? Because even the Catholics understood the syncretic nature of mythology and the transcendent truth to be found there.
The story of Venus is the story of inspiration's source and the resulting creation of beauty: beauty born of the mixture of corporeal matter and divinity (read the mysterious conscious and intuitive mind). The story of Venus is an attempt to explicate the source of what is beautiful or desirable. You can read it as failed literal truth but even a Roman in the first century would have realized its allegorical nature and that that allegory speaks a visceral reality regarding the subject.
What is beauty and what is beauty's source? Why is beauty compelling/fascinating? Myth gives us a real and efficacious answer to these questions: beauty is the manifestation of inspired mind through the structure of matter.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:04pm PT
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book review...
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6341/915.full
Idiosyncratic desires
Erika Lorraine Milam
The Evolution of Beauty: How Darwin's Forgotten Theory of Mate Choice Shapes the Animal World—and Us
Richard O. Prum
Doubleday, 2017. 454 pp.
Science 02 Jun 2017:
Vol. 356, Issue 6341, pp. 915
DOI: 10.1126/science.aam9520
"Imagine a world created by the quest for beauty, filled with colorful dancing and governed by the principle of autonomous sexual freedom. To access this world, according to Richard Prum, you need only take a stroll outside and watch the avian rites of spring. The Evolution of Beauty represents the culmination of decades of Prum's careful research on birds—he is the William Robertson Coe Professor of Ornithology at Yale University—including the evolution of feathers, courtship patterns, and social behavior.
Prum argues that evolutionary biologists, especially those who spend their time with mammals, have fundamentally underestimated the importance of female choice as a cause of beauty in the natural world..."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:07pm PT
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Ed did admit that, did he not?
yes... if you want to get down to brass tacks...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:23pm PT
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Of course our understanding of the beautiful goes far beyond the bounds of sexual preference and includes not only what we find in nature (a meadow in the Sierra) but what we create within the constituting consciousness of a picture frame.
The question as to whether or not a bird is attracted to the feathers of another because of an aesthetic perception may very well be an anthropomorphic investment by the human observer.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
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extraterrestrials - viruses
transport - meteorites
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:30pm PT
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"...Prum devotes the final third of the book to the evolution of sexuality in humans. Although it would be tempting to attend to differences between men and women, Prum argues that to understand our own nature, we would be better served by comparing ourselves with our ancestors and simian relatives. From this angle, human males are far less sexually aggressive than we should expect.
In comparison with male chimpanzees, human men have relatively smaller testicles, longer sex, dramatically reduced canine teeth, decreased rates of infanticide, and higher rates of homosexual interactions. These physiological and behavioral changes, Prum contends, might result from selection for female sexual autonomy and pleasure similar to that seen in birds. He hopes that other biologists will incorporate sexual selection for beauty into their own research programs on the mating (or more accurately, remating) preferences of humans..."
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
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I forget, did Venus have anything to do with sex?...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
...does sex have anything to do with evolution?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 11, 2017 - 05:45am PT
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“Humanity today is like a waking dreamer, caught between the fantasies of sleep and the chaos of the real world. The mind seeks but cannot find the precise place and hour. We have created a Star Wars civilization, with Stone Age emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. We thrash about. We are terribly confused by the mere fact of our existence, and a danger to ourselves and to the rest of life.”
Edward O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of Earth
“Moreover, we look in vain to philosophy for the answer to the great riddle. Despite its noble purpose and history, pure philosophy long ago abandoned the foundational questions about human existence. The question itself is a reputation killer. It has become a Gorgon for philosophers, upon whose visage even the best thinkers fear to gaze. They have good reason for their aversion. Most of the history of philosophy consists of failed models of the mind. The field of discourse is strewn with the wreckage of theories of consciousness. After the decline of logical positivism in the middle of the twentieth century, and the attempt of this movement to blend science and logic into a closed system, professional philosophers dispersed in an intellectual diaspora. They emigrated into the more tractable disciplines not yet colonized by science – intellectual history, semantics, logic, foundational mathematics, ethics, theology, and, most lucratively, problems of personal life adjustment.
Philosophers flourish in these various endeavors, but for the time being, at least, and by a process of elimination, the solution of the riddle has been left to science. What science promises, and has already supplied in part, is the following. There is a real creation story of humanity, and one only, and it is not a myth. It is being worked out and tested, and enriched and strengthened, step by step. (9-10)”
― Edward O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of Earth
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 11, 2017 - 03:27pm PT
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Nice Bob.
Trouble with old religions is they died and no one noticed.
Some more contemporary religions just try to reboot the old ones.
The greatest religions are yet to come. And they will look nothing like the old ones.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 11, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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The worldwide fastest growing belief is no belief.....praise the non existent one!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
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Atheism - the new evangelism!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 11, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
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Atheism requires that you specifically NOT believe in God. Personally I don't like going around NOT doing something all the time. It is tedious.
That would be directly opposed to Monotheism which believes in a single God. (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Mormonism)
There are other religions that don't care or are like, whatever.
Polythesim (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Hinduism, and many tribal religions)
Enlightenment religions (Buddism, Taoism, Scientology)
Philosphy Religions (Confusism, Falun Gong)
And many others hard to categorize:
http://www.religionfacts.com/religions
Christian Americans always worried about loosing their grip. Tried to shut down the options. Studying other religions frowned upon.
There needs to be better education on what religion is. It seems to simply get defined by the media as bad.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
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Cosmic, great follow up. Spider, nice post. Here, here, for making a study of comparative religion. There is a lot of useful to learn there - even for atheists! ;-) - from the myths they contain and what we can come to understand about ourselves and others.
Been into taoism for 47 years. Good stuff, in my estimation. To get a feel for the thing read the Tao Te Ching. Best translation - bar none* - is by Ralph Alan Dale. That's the background on what follows.
The foundations of taoism are the concepts concerning laws of nature (YinYang) and ideal human behavor being in harmony with natural laws as expounded in the I Ching (Yijing).
The Great Integrity expresses one.
One manifests as two.
Two is transformed into three.
And three generates all
the myriad entities of the universe.
Every entity always returns
to yin after engaging yang.
The fusion of these two opposites
births the Vital Energy
that sustains the harmony of life.
~ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, Chapter 42
400-600 BCE, emperor Zhou’s court
Core concepts in taoism are wu-wei, pu and the three treasures.
Wu-wei
action in harmony with the laws of nature
Pu
original nature; naturalness; pu is characterized by authenticity, spontaneity, creativity and simplicity
Three Treasures
compassion
frugality
humility
Note: The three teasures can also refer to the three characteristics of living things - jing, chi and shen. This model is fundamental to traditional Chinese medicine, including acupuncture.
The concept of enlightenment isn't really a "thing" in taoism. If anything the point is to become aware of the Tao (laws of nature), return to Pu (your original and authentic nature) and practice wu-wei (act in harmony with natural laws).
In this way, taoism is more philosophy than religion although there is some aspect of religion, also. Being a lover of stoicism, too, I can't help but feel comfortable with their similarities.
*I could be wrong, of course!
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
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To Spider's point, if you remove the Judeo-Christian perspective of God or any other form of Mythology and shift the meaning to a higher intelligence, designer or organized energy, then atheism, in my mind becomes a prejudice.
Then again, using these alternate definitions of God probably eliminates the traditional meaning of religion and more accurately addresses spirituality.
I'm neither religious nor spiritual, yet I'm unwilling to dismiss some religious and very intelligent people (Jimmy Carter, Bill Moyers, Barack and Michelle Obama, the Dalai Lama, etc.).
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 11, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
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Atheism is an act of faith usually based on a misunderstanding of what God might be.
In that sense atheism is itself a kind of religion.
For one to say with certainty that there is no final term, no first cause of an organized nature, no intelligence in the universe larger/greater than that of humanity, one denies the reality and the mystery that reality presents. You don't have to believe in magic to recognize the possibility within a structured universe governed by the laws of physics that a final organizing term is a possibility.
To state unequivocally there is no God is to assume an impossible knowledge based on a completely subjective and totally assumed definition of the term itself.
Nonsense.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2017 - 08:58pm PT
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In that sense atheism is itself a kind of religion.
That's what I've been sayin'!
The whole god question isn't a science question.
Asking the god question, regardless of your conclusion, is a religious/spiritual inquiry - not a scientific one.
Because of this atheism is a religion/religious belief based on faith.
And, its' believers tend to suffer from - wait do they suffer or do those they're proselytizing to suffer? - with smugness, self-righteousness and intolerance much like their religious brethren.
Of course, for context, refer to my "We are after all just making this sh#t up" model of religious/spiritual practice/belief/faith. Which means that, since I'm talking about religion, I'm just making sh#t up as much as everyone else.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 11, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
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To state unequivocally there is no God is to assume an impossible knowledge based on a completely subjective and totally assumed definition of the term itself.
Nonsense.
I think to state unequivocally that there is a God is also nonsense.
To say that you don't know would be the most honest answer.
But it is also possible to conduct your thoughts as if there were a God, or weren't a God.
From my perspective, one might push on the idea that no God is required to explain the universe, and work from there. I don't think that is nonsense.
It is a tortured task to make the case that atheism is a religion.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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To say that you don't know would be the most honest answer.
Exactly.
It is a tortured task to make the case that atheism is a religion.
It wasn't a tortured task. It was really very easy.
And, the case is easy to make.
Doesn't mean it convinces. ;-)
Do I care? Not really. The thing itself is fun and I am a zen tantric stoic Sufi taoist, so I'm not attached to it. Riding the juice of the wave is enough
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 11, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
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It is a tortured task to make the case that atheism is a religion.
It's a certain belief that is predicated on conjecture based on limited and perhaps, even likely, mistaken observations. As well, Insofar as atheism defines God in no uncertain terms, how can it not be a religion.
An interesting discussion would be whether there is more evidence for God's existence or non-existence, judging from physical evidence, the condition of consciousness, the structure of the universe. Of course this requires a definition of the term.
You can make a strong argument for a universe sans God, but the problem is you can make a powerful argument the other way as well. That leaves both the priest and the atheist in a bit of a bind.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2017 - 10:32pm PT
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The universe is 10 billion or more years old.
There exists, billions of planets capable of supporting life.
In the cosmic blink of an eye, man has gone from stone tools to the manipulation of life and matter.
Do the math....
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