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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Blue,
I grew up around evangelicals, but what you wrote makes zero sense.
None of it does to me now, really, but you are a special level of Christian huh? like a Special Ops or something?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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It's pretty obvious that when people start bickering about the historical or physical problems with miracles and old Hebrew myths about origins and so forth, the conversation devolves into farce and what's get lost is what might be valuable in a person's actual life, above and far beyond the confines or tradition and mythology. What this thread bears out - at least these last bits - is that fundamentalists and "scientists" are obsessed with the the same things (the historical and physical verity of myths and miracles).
The larger questions remain unexplored. This is the curse of a quantifying approach to spiritual issues and the search for truth in all the wrong places, a process that works well with objects and things, not so much here.
Strikes me like two bald men arguing over a comb. Even when one gets it, they still have something useless, and have truly only gone skin deep with the whole business.
JL
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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My prior questions were in my head when I was 6-7 years old. Oh, and I read some 'tracts' about Hell that scared the sh#t of of me, so I learned to not ask too many questions. Cuz, ya know, Thomas doubted and look what happened to him.
but fair enough,
how about these questions:
Is predestintion biblical, given that Yaweh sees and knows all?
If yes, why did god create people (especially Jews) to torture them in hell?
If yes, do we have a say in our own salvation?
If yes, do abortions and miscarriages go to hell, given that they were predetermined not to exist in the material world?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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To that end- The fact that bacteria has been scientifically proven to survive space travel resets the whole notion of intelligent design aside from unsubstantiated quibbles over dogmatic lore and tradition.
Are we dandelion seeds blown with intent from past worlds?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I have nothing but respect for Blue, but he operates from a different code than the one i do or even understand.
Thanks Largo! my same sentiments and sentience, right back at you. Ha! see what i did there? i've learned alot off ya over on the "Vs" thread. The respect is all from me:)
Although, i still can't give "sentience" a dignified definition.. i'm pretty sure in there somewhere is; "the ability to recognize as we are a living, breathing, blood flowing, sensing, FEELING, organism. And within this recognition we are able to remember prior experience and make decisions based on how we feel inorder to proceed into the future." ?
i'm trying to see sentience as more than just the awareness of "being" a living, sensing, feeling organism. Rather the dual dialog we human's each have within our brain seemingly trying to predict the future. Maybe this is the big "I" vs the little "i" PsP's been noting?
i may be stuck with what i think is the definition of conscience from the OT, and how sentience is different?
Do you think sentience cohorts outside the individual?
Awe,, i'm spugging! as my new client likes to say..
Sorry Limpingcrab!, i shall recline
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Largo....."what gets lost is what might be valuable in a person's actual life....."
And that which was valuable became life saving, even life creating for me. I may sound dramatic, but it is the truth in my life, lynne.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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I'm pretty sure Jesus would not see his teachings in most self reporting "christians". How come?
Who is right, the Pope or the head of the russian orthodox church? Both are incapable of error, but don't seem agree on some details. WTF?
Which parts of the old testament are null and void? How come? Which parts are mandatory today, and why? Who decides which are in vogue, and why aren't those details and dates in that little black book.
Who goes to hell? Will a immoral Christian or a truly moral athiest have a preference?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ We are all gentiles trying to be jewish?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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My first encounter with an Orthodox Christian was in El Cap Meadows. In the real world I'm interested in your experience and he was in charge of a bunch of normal looking kids. He looked like a 30 year old Nostradamus. Or so. Robe, beard, hat.
I'm my usual gregarious and enthusiastic self, proclaiming the glory manifest all around us and in his young charges. He vehemently denied that We and Everything that we see were divine or of G-d. He was a grim dude. Super grim.
That's where they lost it to the Catholics. Wine and babies is a winning strategy. And G-d save us from proselytizing Wasps. Is there a more sexless, passionless group of religions than the European takes on the Good 'ol Book o' Stories?
In some world views there are two souls; the alma and the anima. Alma mater is the nourishing mother. Anima Mundi is the world spirit. I doubt that our orthodox friend would agree with Plato here, but I do,
"Therefore, we may consequently state that: this world is indeed a living being endowed with a soul and intelligence ... a single visible living entity containing all other living entities, which by their nature are all related." - Don Plato
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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a truly moral athiest Satan
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2016 - 11:21pm PT
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Hi Limping.
Ok, so I have a legitimate question for you.
And this is NOT meant to "trap" you in any way, just want to know how you personally deal with, justify the many, many inconsistencies in the Bible.
I am sure you are very aware of the simply awful passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy, among others.
Just a few examples:
The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).
In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)
I could go on and on and on, but I won't because you already know the Bible.
So my question; IF the Bible is the literal word of god, then how do you justify god telling humans to rape, enslave, and murder?
To myself, it is quite clear that ignorant sheep herders, men of their time, wrote those horrible parts of the Bible, and not a god.
So, the entire Bible either IS or is NOT the works or men or the word of god?
One cannot "cherry pick" in good conscious if one is a "true" Christian who believes that the entire Bible was not written by humans, can one? This is a long question! But I'm glad you asked as it is something everyone who reads the Bible is destined to think about. I thought this would come up much sooner to be honest. I'll answer what I, personally, believe about this after studying the entire story of the Bible. Keep in mind that I believe the Bible has a historical flow, so I do not want to cherry pick certain verses and will try to provide context. One at a time:
1. Slavery: Slavery in Old Testament time was not the terrible injustice that we associate it with today and what happened in the United States. In fact, anyone who abducted a person and either sold or kept them was to be put to death (Exodus 21:16). There was no safety net or welfare back then so people often sold themselves into slavery so they could be fed and housed, or sold family members whom they could not support. It was about economics and survival, not race or oppression. Because voluntary slavery was widely practiced, the Bible prescribes laws to help protect the lives and health of slaves. I believe the focus of the Bible is for internal transformation that will effect the way people act and think, which is what God desires, more than it was for political reformation. Under God there is no Jew, Greek, Gentile, slave or any other label (Colossians 3:11).
2. Child Abuse: The first story you referenced was when Jephthah made an oath to God that he would sacrifice whatever came out of his house after the battle if he won. I believe this was a foolish oath, and he murdered his daughter. There is no evidence that, although God used him in battle (discussed later), God condoned this action. In fact He strictly forbids human sacrifice (Deuteronomy 12:31). Some people interpret this to mean she was given to the Temple to serve, since the story talks about how she will not marry. I personally try not to twist stories in the Bible just to make myself comfortable, so I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation. But I won't argue with someone about it, either.
To conclude, I don't think God allows child abuse.
I'll address the second story you mention next.
3. Killing Men, Women and Children. My beliefs about when the Jews were sent to wipe out entire nations should cover all of your other statements.
God commanding the killing of entire Nations in the Old Testament is often cited by critics, and sometimes even included in statements like, "I was a Christian until I read the Old Testament."
First, the Canaanite culture was extremely vile in every sense of the word and even practiced human sacrifice. The Judgement of God was not directed at something like ethnic cleansing, but rather the religions and practices that directly opposed God (Deuteronomy 12:2-3). There were individuals and groups that were spared when they repented. God first desires that people turn from their sins, rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32).
Also, don't forget that God gave the people in these nations generations of time to change their ways. He gave them over 400 years (Genesis 15:13–16), and they were aware of God. Both men and women were guilty, but what about children? First, nobody is truly innocent. But I also believe, more importantly, that children who are too young to make important decisions will go to heaven (I discussed this in detail, with citations, earlier). Not to mention that if all of the men and women were killed, leaving infants out in the exposure would probably be a worse death. If anyone was innocent, in those whole populations, the story of God shows that he would have saved them (Genesis 18:22).
The Bible tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). His character demands that sin be punished, but his grace extends to anyone willing to simply accept it. Before these wars, God punished people who rejected Him with a flood and was gracious enough to keep humanity going. In the time in question, God used a group of people to punish and remove the people who had rejected Him. Because He commanded people to do it, rather than doing it directly (like the flood), it makes us much more uncomfortable.
Maybe I over explained this, but God does punish people when they reject him and live in rebellion to His plan and desire for a relationship. Sometimes he uses natural disasters, other times he chooses groups of people to carry out his plans. An analogy might be removing a leg with gangrene to preserve the life and the rest of the body.
This, I believe, tells the whole story, rather than cherry picking verses to look like God condones certain actions at all times. Thanks to Jesus, we are now all his chosen people if we accept this grace. He suffered for those sins so that we don't have to.
I've got a legitimate questions too:
Was the earth made in 6 days, if so, were dinosaurs alive with Jesus?
thanks I do not believe I know the answer to that question. As I see it, there are three options.
1. God created the earth in six days, in motion. As in, he made stars millions of lightyears away, but they could already be seen. Because of this the earth was in motion in the same way. This seems kind of tricky to me, but maybe that's why God said he will humble the wise and we should trust in him above human wisdom (1st Corinthians 3:19).
2. He created it a long time ago and it has changed and evolved for a long time.
3. No God, it banged and life came from non-life.
I think the first two can be convincingly argued but I don't have enough faith to believe the third option.
When the rapture happens and Christians ascend into heaven, how do they breathe in space? Space gills, of course.
It's pretty obvious that when people start bickering about the historical or physical problems with miracles and old Hebrew myths about origins and so forth, the conversation devolves into farce and what's get lost is what might be valuable in a person's actual life, above and far beyond the confines or tradition and mythology. What this thread bears out - at least these last bits - is that fundamentalists and "scientists" are obsessed with the the same things (the historical and physical verity of myths and miracles).
The larger questions remain unexplored. This is the curse of a quantifying approach to spiritual issues and the search for truth in all the wrong places, a process that works well with objects and things, not so much here.
Strikes me like two bald men arguing over a comb. Even when one gets it, they still have something useless, and have truly only gone skin deep with the whole business. I don't intend to get into debates here, only to give people a chance to ask someone who tries to follow Jesus why I believe what I do.
I believe that it would be a good thing for people to enjoy living out the teachings of the Pauline letters, as you say, but I also think that a belief in Jesus is the foundation. From what I can tell you would like to talk about how humans would look if they followed teachings and spent time considering it, but without worrying about where the teachings came from. Or what fruit would look like if there were no trees. Maybe I'm not understanding, but I would like to if you would clarify.
how about these questions:
Is predestintion biblical, given that Yaweh sees and knows all?
If yes, why did god create people (especially Jews) to torture them in hell?
If yes, do we have a say in our own salvation?
If yes, do abortions and miscarriages go to hell, given that they were predetermined not to exist in the material world? I do not know the answer to your first question, so I guess the next ones are not applicable. I used to try to figure that one out until I realized it would not effect how I would live so I decided not to stress about. The arguments on both sides seem to center on the difference between knowing what will happen and determining what will happen.
I addressed your last question earlier in this thread, but I believe that children too young to decide will spend eternity with God and the sacrifice of Jesus covers them (2nd Samuel 12).
To that end- The fact that bacteria has been scientifically proven to survive space travel resets the whole notion of intelligent design aside from unsubstantiated quibbles over dogmatic lore and tradition.
Are we dandelion seeds blown with intent from past worlds?
I believe this is the scapegoat for the scientists that have accepted the improbability of abiogenesis.
I'm pretty sure Jesus would not see his teachings in most self reporting "christians". How come? I believe that people are hypocrites.
Who is right, the Pope or the head of the russian orthodox church? Both are incapable of error, but don't seem agree on some details. WTF? I'm not sure where Catholicism got this idea, but I personally believe that the Bible has the authority (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Which parts of the old testament are null and void? How come? Which parts are mandatory today, and why? Who decides which are in vogue, and why aren't those details and dates in that little black book. I believe that most of the Old Testament is stories, but that some of it is the Old Testament Law. The Laws were designed to help sinners get closer to a perfect God, to function in a society, and were based on sacrifices. Jesus was the final sacrifice so he essentially completed the story and now we all have access to God through Him, without a need for the law (1st John 2:2).
Who goes to hell? Will a immoral Christian or a truly moral athiest have a preference?
I believe the center of my faith is Jesus, and from an eternal perspective accepting his love is more important than our day to day actions. Though I do not believe it is possible to know Jesus and still continue consistently opposing him in action (Romans 6:1-2).
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Real classy, Gary.
Yeah, that 4 year old girl was classy. Too bad some of those preachers don't have the understanding that she has.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Limpcrab- 1. Slavery: Slavery in Old Testament time was not the terrible injustice that we associate it with today and what happened in the United States. In fact, anyone who abducted a person and either sold or kept them was to be put to death (Exodus 21:16). There was no safety net or welfare back then so people often sold themselves into slavery so they could be fed and housed, or sold family members whom they could not support. It was about economics and survival, not race or oppression. Because voluntary slavery was widely practiced, the Bible prescribes laws to help protect the lives and health of slaves. I believe the focus of the Bible is for internal transformation that will effect the way people act and think, which is what God desires, more than it was for political reformation. Under God there is no Jew, Greek, Gentile, slave or any other label (Colossians 3:11).
Are you really going there? This is no different than me defending my southern ancestors by saying "they treated their nigras real good!".
This is a good example of "Clinging" that Largo referenced.
I refrain from attacking religious mythology because it's rationally indefensible. There's always going to be defenders of the faith with a fresh brand of crafty, nuanced literalism and they specialize in dragging critics into the weeds. This never leads to consensus and most often leads to both parties trapped in dueling paradoxical arguments.
As intimated by others, if you are truly graced by a spiritual presence, and based on the lack of scientific explanations in regards to the genesis of life, would these not be more credible lines of debate and potential agreement?
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WBraun
climber
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a spiritual presence, and based on the lack of scientific explanations
There's no real lack of scientific explanations for God or the spiritual realm.
The so called scientists only study the gross physical material realm.
Then they foolishly claim that is all in all because that's all their material senses can record.
They cluelessly never realize that every living entity is a spiritual entity and not material all because they stay in their idiotic dogma of materialism is all.
They're like frogs in a well and have no clue of the ocean .....
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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WBraun- "Lack of science related to the genesis of life" is what I said.
Noun then verb- repeat; noun then verb- one more time...
I know of many great scientists that believe in a spiritual presence and that point, I don't argue.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Since it wasn't answered if jesus lived with the dinosaurs, I believe, on faith, he not only did, but killed them into extinction to give Murica oil!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Norton
Social climber
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Limpingcrab,
respectfully, can you take another shot at my questions?
from reading your reply I felt you bs'd you way, example being your unbelievable response to god condoning slavery - that really the slaves kind of were ok with that
I asked you if you agreed those murdering, enslaving, raping orders from god were really written by men back then and not the literal word of god, I can't find your answer?
really limping, this needs to be cleared up, either all of the bible is the literal word of god with no cherry picking saying yeah, yes, some parts were written by men
thanks again, if you woiuld clear all this up better
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Typical Oxymoron word like, Military intelligence, moral athiest,and Socialistic democrat...
...moral Christian.
Of all the "Christians" that I have met, I do know one fellow who actually lived a Christian life. He read the Bible and actually followed the things Jesus said about money, judging others, flaunting your belief in public, etc.
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