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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Carry on with your important effort....
;-)
Apparently an important effort to tell us to carry on....
;-)
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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References to the constitution/bill-of-rights are actually red herrings in this present discussion
Damn striaght.
The fact that the unlawful won't follow the constitution means there is no sense to having a constitution.
Same thing with laws, right?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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The Chief - Muslim is not a race; the word refers to being a follower of a religion.
Race refers to inherited physical characteristics of a subset of humans that distinguishes that group from another subset.
"Mexican," is a nationality, also not what is commonly referred to as race, except by bigots.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Thank you Happiegirl for reaffirming my point as to the illogical post regarding Farouk displaying "racism" by making the Muslim claim of the perps.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The fact that the unlawful won't follow the constitution means there is no sense to having a constitution.
Same thing with laws, right?
Intentionally obtuse.
The point of a constitution is to define and constrain a theoretically law-abiding government.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ I got it. I was just having fun with you. ;-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You're ruining my fun...
I am SO, so very sorry.
But I need the help of others to get all ranted up.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Logical step from your conclusions.
Only in some alternate, logically-impossible universe in which logic as we conceive of it doesn't exist.
Just as there is no point in adopting a constitution for a government that you KNOW from the start isn't going to abide by it, there is no point in adopting legislation that you KNOW from the start that the target demographic isn't going to abide by it.
There IS a point to laws for law-abiding citizens. But gun-control laws generally are not aimed at them.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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You don't like laws aimed at guns even though you have no proof nor any idea what they may or may not prevent. If it were to stop just one or maybe two of these instances a year, would they be worth it then?
BTW
Isn't the constitution just laws?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You don't like laws aimed at guns even though you have no proof nor any idea what they may or may not prevent.
So, you've helped make on of my points already: Nobody has established what these gun-control laws might or might not ACTUALLY accomplish. We're attempting to legislate in an empirical vacuum, with wildly conflicting "data" trotted out by both "sides" in the debate.
You probably didn't read the whole thread, but in an earlier post, I talked about two principles that must be honored in any legislation that attempts to circumscribe the rights of law-abiding citizens. One of them concerns demonstrating solid causal connections between the behaviors the law attempts to prevent and the content of the law itself. Nobody has even begun to provide that sort of demonstration with gun-control laws.
If it were to stop just one or maybe two of these instances a year, would they be worth it then?
The problem here is what you mean by "it".
Many here advocate complete confiscation. Others want there to be no "assault weapons" (whatever those are). California already has the strictest gun-control laws in the nation, with the very weapons used in this latest mass-shooting already illegal. Clearly the law had zero effect on the possession and use of those weapons.
So, the struggle you face is that the possession and carrying of firearms is an inalienable right. It must be presumed, then, that law-abiding citizens retain that right. Whatever the "it" is, must honor that right.
BTW Isn't the constitution just laws?
The constitution is meta-law; it defines how laws come into being and by what authority. Again, the presumption that the government will abide by the meta-law is the very basis of the "good faith" adoption of a constitution. Without that basis in "good faith," you really have anarchy, as the government is fundamentally illegitimate.
Again, you cannot presume ANY "good faith" on the part of criminals. Murder, for example, is already illegal and bears the harshest penalties. Do you REALLY think that this latest shooting would have been prevented if the perps had thought through the applicable laws???
"Gee... I'd really like to take my AR15 and shoot up the place. Butttt, I can't! Dang, I'm not even legally allowed to HAVE the gun. I'd better turn it in. Dang, double-dang! If only there wasn't that pesky assault-weapon law, I'd murder bunches of people!"
Ridiculous.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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How do we do it, Cranksore?
Well, if there is a high probability that the victims to be are armed it would give the wack jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Define "mass shooting".
How many mass shootings are there in a normal year? Is this a big year, or an average one for mass shootings? Or are we below average this year?
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Well, if the identified victims to be are armed it would give the wacko jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.
Doesn't the US already have the most heavily armed citizenry in the 1st world? I'm thinking it's not working and if anything, makes things worse.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Rick, I hope you will report back with your perspective if such a horrible day ever happens that a very loved one is a victim of a similar shooting.
I sincerely hope you never have to gain that perspective.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Define "mass shooting".
The us government defines it as 4 or more persons shot in one incident.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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So Apogee,what does your hope have to do with a solution to these mass shootings, a large percentage of which is Islamic jihad?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"...these mass shootings, a large percentage of which..."
Citation, please?
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Why just look for a solution to Islamic jihad mass shootings and not also those perpetrated by followers of Christ?
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Norton
Social climber
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what do these mass murderers in the US have in common?
(CNN)The man who opened fire at a Charleston church on June 17, killing nine people, joined a list many would like to forget.
Dylann Roof. Adam Lanza. James Holmes. Jared Loughner. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
White, Male, and almost all either raised or identify as Christian
sorry, radical Islam extremists may have entered the list this week
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