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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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Referring to locker four posts up. Though I have been called a lot of names. Meh. Probably true.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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"Until a law is broken, there is pretty much nothing we can do"...
And there it is. Voluntary reduction of the number of guns? Pre-crime enforcement?
On my way into the office today, this woman is next to me on the freeway. She's texting, although Colorado has a no-texting law. The law doesn't apply to her; she does what she feels.
She drifts into my lane and keeps coming. I start to take evasive action and give the barest toot on the horn: "I'm here. Others are around you. There's a whole world outside of your phone, and you're in the midst of it and affecting it!"
She jerks back into her lane while flipping me off. How DARE I warn her and keep her from getting into an accident?
The solution? Of course: tell her to reduce the number of cars she owns. Next time one wears out or she gets tired of it, she should just junk it rather than trade in for another. One less car on the road, and one less driven by HER!
The number of guns in circulation is irrelevant, just as the number of cars owned by somebody is irrelevant. The issue is responsible ownership/usage. You can legislate that all you want, but society is chock full of people to whom the law just doesn't apply; they do what they feel.
Have a universal background check, and all you've done is made it actionable AFTER THE FACT for this latest sicko to get his gun. But, like the texting woman on the freeway, the law doesn't apply to guys like sick-boy. They do whatever they feel.
Drop a dime on our latest sicko pre-crime, and what can get accomplished? Nothing, just as Locker said, which is as it should be!
The alternative is a Minority Report society.
Sh|t's gonna happen. Fortunately the per-capita amount of it is very low, even in our "out of whack USA." If you say it's not "low enough," you're left with trying to engage in some form of pre-crime enforcement. Good luck with that! Sh|t's GONNA happen, and you can't root out these closet nut jobs in advance.
Meanwhile, the idea of reducing the capacity of the law-abiding citizenry to defend themselves (perhaps with "fewer" guns) when the sh|t does happen is a really bad "answer."
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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David M. Kennedy, the director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, argues that the issue of gun violence can seem enormous and intractable without first addressing poverty or drugs.
Very much to the point.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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Damn, Locker
with fingers that long she should have no problem playing Hendrix's Little Wing.......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:46am PT
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This thread is now SO defiled. Gagggggg... what has been seen cannot be unseen.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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Just the distinction of "gun violence" is stupid.
But it makes it easy for the sheep to identify an easy solution. Makes for great MSM propaganda for the non-critical-thinking crew to lap up.
Along the lines of "Islamic terrorist" or "Black Poverty".
Own the language and it's easy to misdirect those with limited attention spans.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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One side fears losing more rights...
Other side fears getting SHOT...
If history teaches us anything, it teaches us that the former fear is much more well-founded!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
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The present widespread discussion over long imprisonment for offenses like possessing a drug and how it causes our incarcerated population to explode, suggests people may be open to changing their views as regards the justice system. That system affects each of us. In different ways but it still affects all. Things to think about:
1. How can you convict someone solely on testimony from a jailhouse informant. His testimony has conflict of interest written all over it.
2. Jail terms should be determined at least partly by whether jail is effective. If jail has a 100% recidivism rate, what do we think we are accomplishing?
3. We might also think about making correction proportional to the damage done to society. A CEO who robs a million people of a trillion dollars of their life savings should not walk and have only to find a new job.
4. And what's with the refusal to release people when good DNA evidence says they are innocent?
That's enough to get me in serious trouble, so I'll stop. The better stuff out there should be discussed in preference to what I have suggested.
There you go, John, being constructive again. If ever a thread tempted me to use greasemonkey, it's this one. Jstan, or course, would never be on my hit list, though.
As one of the very few (I hope) in this forum who's actually been incarcerated, my "inside view" convinced me long ago that our sentencing laws need major work. Our sentencing for violating drug laws, in particular, lacks both justice and efficacy. I'm encouraged by the recognition by California voters that incarceration for first-time drug offenders forms an inferior option to alternative treatment.
I do know, however, that anyone who robs trillions, or merely millions of dollars from the public can expect to spend the rest of their life in custody, so I'm not sure about your CEO comment. Unless you equate making a bad business decision with robbery, your wish states existing law.
John
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
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Part of the answer is to DROP the "Sides" thing and to work TOGETHER finding the best solution...
Agreed, but only if you agree that throwing down a pic like that latest "offering" was "heavy artillery" in the strongest sense, with clear intent to cause irreparable psychological damage; and that you'll never do anything like that again! ;-)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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"5. Address mental health.
6. Address poverty.
7. Address racism and other hate speech. This may require giving up a few rights to freedom of speech, such as the rights we've given up toward combatting terrorism; but hey... isn't it already bordering on terrorism anyway?
8. Address drug manufacturing, dealing, and addiction. Legalize pot to much more extent than it is now. Not so much the rest of them. My opinion.
9. Pour more money into education. Give people the skills necessary to get a job, increase their quality of life, and boost our economy.
10. Healthcare. Sooo much to say about that. Cheaper, better, etc."
What's your meaning of "address"? Our government all ready addresses all these behaviors with the highest percentage of money to person ratio the world has ever seen. But like in the example of government directed public schools. History shows The more money we give the government to spend has been directly proportional with the decline in quality of education.
We shouldn't look to the government to be our only "holders of wisdom" with matters concerning the direction our behavior takes us. They are merely a referee! Just like in a basketball game, their presence should only be that of calling fouls. On issues like education, the "What's" and "How's" should bounced back and forth between differing opinions amongst The People. It should NOT be left up to the government!
These forums seem like the best way to get out everyone's opinions. Maybe we should start national forums for each and every issue? An Education forum could be filled with info on what's pertinent TO teach children in different age groups. And what are the best strategies FOR teaching the info.
Having these Forums would be the easiest way to get everyone involved, and would be educational to all :)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:18pm PT
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It would be wrong of me to agree to something that ISN'T going to happen...
Somehow I had a feeling that would be your answer.
At least you can tell the difference between right and wrong. Of course, the posting of that pic does raise the question! LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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Why, that would be unthinkable.
No, just useless.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
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By "address" I mean do more to reduce these problems. Education ranks high on my list, because when I look around...
I see stupid people.
Actually, I see people who are unprepared for life. They don't have basic job skills (math, English, speaking on coherent sentences, ya know?), and even less, specific job skills in any particular field. It makes me glad to see a trend happening now wherein public education is beginning to focus on offering technical skills in various fields at a high school level. Colleges are successfully expanding their technical trades as well, in addition to the general educational type of degrees. The biggest hurdle though, I suspect, is engaging students and getting them interested in these types of programs. Seems easier now, with more choices for them, as they are more likely to encounter an area of interest.
However, there is a definite need for financial aid in the form of both loans and grants, and probably more so in terms of grants. Low-income and poverty-stricken students just aren't terribly likely to take out, or even qualify for loans.
I'll relate to you that I hated high school with a passion. Took the GED and got out. Went back later, got an actual diploma, and took about the only class that interested me in college. Working full time just to live, and taking classes when I could afford them finally earned me an associate's, four years longer than it should have taken. It's been a good career; but never earned me much money, since I value other things in life more, like time with family and in the outdoors. Maybe I should have done it differently.
Now, I'm trying my hand at teaching, making less than I actually could in my chosen profession, because I'm hoping I can give back to the community this way AND contribute to making a difference in education by providing a quality education to those who need a valuable job skill.
That old adage about "those who can, do... those who can't, teach"? Maybe true in some cases; but you may change your tune if you have a class to teach some time. I don't mean tapping out a paper on why the figure 8 is better than the bowline, I mean creating a full-on program of QUALITY, where successful graduates will truly have and education, and an employable set of skills behind them. We need more of that. But the support simply isn't there, in part because people think education's just a waste of money, more government propaganda or some crap.
Does that help?
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Degaine
climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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jonnyrig wrote:
That old adage about "those who can, do... those who can't, teach"?
First, good on you for teaching.
Second, anyone who pulls out that old adage on is both full of sh#t and doesn't know what the f*#k they're talking about.
The success of the human race has been from being able to pass down and build on information from one generation to the next. Those who teach have put in the time to gain the expertise to then pass on a skill to others.
Most teachers I know "did" within their subject expertise and then decided to teach, and I know plenty of people in both engineering and business who are both "doing" and "teaching".
Anyway, cheers.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
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Registry, check.
Since most gun owners won't agree to a federally run registry, how about a federal mandate that each state have a gun registry and it must be open for cross reference for all states. I'd like to see the registry be more like the auto registration. You wold be required to file transfer of weapon for each each time it is resold and you would have to carry a small wallet sized registration card for each weapon you carry in public for proof of ownership. Should your weapon be stolen you would have to provide that info to state registries within a x amount of time. If your weapon shows up at a crime scene and you did not say it was lost, you'd be fined heavily and no longer able to possess a weapon.
Ammo, don't care to much on that one.
Start banning the sale of firearms that can hold more than seven rounds. Of course no fully auto either, but I believe they're already banned. The legal ones that are already out there stay.
One of the biggest things we could do is to get damn tough on violations of current laws, that would take a lot of push from both sides of the isle so I doubt that will pan out.
This is not going to stop a lot of gun crimes, so don't strawman every little situation. It's a start IMHO.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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Does that help?
Yeah I'm right with ya in spirit and experiences. But your asking for MORE money?
Californian's spent approx. 77 BILLION last year on 10,500 public schools.
Student population; 6,236,672
Roughly 12,200 spent on each child. In a class of 25, that's $300,000 !!!!!!!!!
And you need more money? How do you possible see more money making for higher quality?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Yes, clearly, voluntarily reducing the number of weapons on the market would have no effect on the availability of those now missing weapons for criminal use.
Clearly.... (blink, blink)
"Yes, clearly, voluntarily reducing the number of cars on the market would have no effect on the availability of those vehicles for idiotic use. Clearly.... (blink, blink)."
The texting woman on the road today sees herself as above and beyond the anti-texting law, she has no intention of obeying it, and the number of vehicles in her driveway/garage has no relevance to her misuse of the one she was driving irresponsibly and illegally.
The last two accidents I've been in, both times I was rear-ended. One totaled my car. In both cases, the drivers were uninsured and had no valid licence.
Did the cop take them away in cuffs? Of course not. In both cases, the cop issued a citation and told me I could sue (or my insurance company could, which declined). In both cases the drivers provided false addresses, and I could not sue because I could never serve them.
Would reducing the number of vehicles on the market have the slightest effect upon these drivers' determination to do whatever they feel, with utter disregard for the relevant laws (or their impact on other people)? Would reducing the number of vehicles make it less likely that these drivers are going to drive or that they are going to cause mayhem with their driving?
As long as people live in disregard for the rights of others, bad sh|t is going to happen. Laws or no laws. If you can't tumble to this FACT of life, then, seriously, nothing can be done for you.
Number of vehicles (uh, guns) is a totally irrelevant red herring. Responsible owners will use them responsibly; irresponsible and/or sick people WILL get them and use them badly.
Hey, while we're in the federal "reducing" game, let's reduce the quantity of drugs on the street! Maybe if we make federals laws and have a dedicated federal agency to enforce them, call it something like the "Drug Enforcement Agency," or something sporty like that....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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Second, anyone who pulls out that old adage on is both full of sh#t and doesn't know what the f*#k they're talking about.
This kind of talk gets us nowhere but the outhouse ; (
That adage was started by people no longer able to do the physical work demanded within their industry.. My metal shop teacher started teaching after his fingers were cut off in an industrial accident.
And is your example of "Do'ers And Teachers" pertaining to public K-12, or College?
At my local elementary I would estimate half the teachers are there waiting retirement form the example I presented, while the other half are young'ins there as a stepping stone.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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Blue- switch careers to education, preferably at some inter-city disadvantaged neighborhood public institution, then get back to me.
Hell, go spend a day at one.
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