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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:33am PT
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Hedgy what about those really tall boulders? You never answered my question about when we can start grid bolting boulder problems? How tall is too tall for no bolts? 15' 20' 40' ? There's way too many R and X rated problems that weren't put up by people at their max, dude. Get on this sh#t and fix that! I don't want to sprain my ankle!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:33am PT
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Warbler - Too late - I replaced both bolts years ago. Only one at first, didn't find the other one until toproping it. The hanger was sheared off, only a small bit of it and the bolt were left...
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:34am PT
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Yes, it would be way more logical to alter a bunch of existing routes & have ppl free solo them & skip the clips rather than doing them in the original style. Makes perfect sense.
I know you are right, that is why everyone agrees with you.
I now see the level of self awareness that we are dealing with here, or lack thereof. This has been fun but I have to leave work now.
Goodnight Jghedge, hope to see another 40 posts by you on this thread by tomorrow morning.
You'll probably get hungry after a few more hrs of this so ill leave you a snack:
Edit- I see Ron is still awake, might have to check in when I get home. This thread could be at 1000 by then.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:39am PT
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*sigh* A child. I should have known.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:43am PT
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Not suggesting all x-rated routes get retro'd. Just a few glaring examples that the community agrees would better serve the community as g-rated rather than x-rated.
Then git done with the suspense and list you proposals!
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:44am PT
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Who would these routes be bolted for anyway? Seem like you're done, not meant as an insult but based on age, and the "kids and sons" who are still climbing don't seem to want them.
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:53am PT
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I think something to consider is the fact that some of the most famous and most loved trad routes are retrobolted, and they are still "R" rated. Most of you are probably familiar with the story of Snake Dike. Here's another example, from Ed Webster's "Rock Climbs in the White Mountains of New Hampshire."
"Sliding Board 5.7R ***
Exceptionally popular.
On the climb's first ascent, Crowther placed only one bolt, the bolt protecting the crux 5.7 slab moves at the start. On a subsequent ascent, he added a second bolt, the one just above the 5.7 crux. By the mid-1960s, the route's completely unprotected third pitch was nearly as infamous as the lower technical crux. The bolt in the middle of Pitch three (probably first added in the mid 1960s) has greatly reduced the seriousness of what was Bob Gilmore's original, and equally daring, lead."
"Sliding Board" was one of my first multipitch trad leads and the runouts certainly were an important part of that experience. Digging deep and commiting to the line was intimidating. The knowledge that my ability to climb without falling was integral to my safety was unnerving. Completing the route was exhilarating. Would I have climbed the route without those added bolts? Probably not.
You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that I've heard anyone on this thread advocate for the sport bolting of all runout routes. (Although that seems to be what many are arguing against.) Should "Snake Dike" and "Sliding Board" be chopped back to their original states? Are the 5.7 leaders of today not sacking up enough because they're ok with 65 foot runouts but not 130 foot ones?
The question of where to start has been raised. My suggestion would be on the completely protectionless free-solo routes, where permission has been granted by the FA. Greg has brought up the free-solo routes of Alan Nelson in Tuolumne as an example. Given the conga line on "Holdless Horror" every weekend, there probably could stand to be a few more easy routes that people would actually climb. Is "Silverado," a 5.6X on Fairview Dome, a coveted test piece for anyone? Given it's location near "Great Pumpkin" and "Magical Mystery Tour," I think similar runout bolting would be appropriate. Perhaps someone could hand drill it free, on lead?
What do you all think?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:16am PT
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Hell no Joe. I say we bolt everything and while were at it reduce the YDS rating system to a maximum of 5.3d. This way everyone can safely feel good about themselves while climbing at the top grade. Isn't it an access issue after all?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:22am PT
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"Sure seems like a lot of fuss over repeat-where you and I know
the real goods is the exploration of the unknown."
Yeah no kidding. I don't think I've repeated a route in the last decade
Hedge do mean that there are no 5.11+ X, or harder, routes around?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:45am PT
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This game is decidedly not for everyone [...]
Who decides who the game is for?
That's easy. The climber his very own self. If you get up on the route and don't like the runout, and you don't want to put in the time to work up to it, then by your own actions the game is not for you. The first ascent does not decide for you if yo udo or do not go for the run out. You do.
What you are arguing about or rather, arguing for, is that the FA party has no right to determine the degree of risk on a climb, that you want it safe. But this is not a trad ethic. That's a sport climbing ethic.
If you don't like the caliber of risk, then do what all the rest of us did: Slowly increase your risk management skills.
The fact that this is a fortten strategy does not mean it won't come back into vogue eventually. Don't try for a permanent solution for a temporary problem. Let people climb up to the level of the few routes still out there that require mind control.
But on the subject of retro bolting, I say bolt the living sh#t out of Stoneer's Highway. Grid bolt it. It was never super rfuin out to begin with so just make it so any gym climber can clip right up it. And we'll see what happens from there.
JL
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:49am PT
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Just don't bolt my GU 12X's
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 03:22am PT
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Back to the name calling Hedge?
How about routes where we were at or very near our max? Many of the turned out to be hard 11's and 12's with huge runouts with ground fall potential. Your claim that routes like this don't exist is total BS
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 03:27am PT
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Get off of that goat and answer the question
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:52am PT
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Lots of great ideas hidden amongst this train wreck of a post. It's all flappin' until the rubber hits the road. I say, start out with one of Alan Nelson's run out Tuolumne routes;......right side of Fairview. Someone sac up and bolt up one of those free solos he did "way back when". Actually do something real besides bark in cyberspace. Do it;..and do it up correctly, so people who climb at that grade will feel comfortable leading it. (Doesn't mean a bolt every 5 feet either)... That would be impressive, real, and something I would enjoy climbing. It can be done without any name calling, threats, and butt-hurt feelings......can't it?.....(Post pictures, please...).......It's a starting point;....see how it goes, see what happens, and take it from there.....
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:06am PT
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Todd: Lots of great ideas hidden amongst this train wreck of a post. It's all flappin' until the rubber hits the road.
Whew.. just read all 800 posts. My brain is toast BTW.
There's a whole lot of new climbers out there and they aren't going away, so this is a worthy discussion for the climbing community to address.
Lot's of valid opinions on both sides of the argument. I think I'm with both Todds and Tom H. on this one.. I see both sides and I'm a firm believer in some modicum of compromise being possible whilst still respecting the past. :)
The "law" of the first ascent.. Laws vary depending on where you are and are not set in stone... well, ( I take that back).. I guess the bolts are literally set in stone once placed. ;)
Gotta go get some coffee now and re-boot my fried brain.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:23am PT
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an individual will chop it.
It can't be chopped you fool.
Never ever can it be chopped.
It was already done you fool.
The consciousness of the death run out is eternal you knuckleheads.
Absolutely no one can ever remove that.
It will only become dormant over time and resurface again according to time and circumstance ......
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:24am PT
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I pulled a quote from Deuce4 over on the Wingsuit thread. Seems pertinent here.
Combination of mastery of the sport and willingness to put it all on the line--the common characteristics of any advancement of human endeavours.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:28am PT
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"The community won't chop it, an individual will chop it.
We probably wouldn't ever even know who did it."
How is this any different from the "individuals" who have placed nearly every retrobolt out there?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:31am PT
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I dunno John, pretty sure Mr hedge is gunna wake up soon & tell u ur wrong.
Edit- oh someone beat him to it.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:35am PT
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In previous drivel, 'twas cut and pasted, yet again:
It's a hypocrisy ethic. Plain and simple. You never did at your level what you're asking people not as good as you to do at theirs. We're too scared to do at our level what you admit you were too scared to do at yours, but we're pussies and you aren't. Sure, pal.
You're hurt and suffering. We get it. Try not to compare yourself to others and the heartbreak of your inadequacy might diminish.
Tobin on The Edge at Tahquitz... Applying your (il)logic, he's a hypocrite and a pussy. ("He stole the rock from us 'cause we won't lead it!") As it stands, The Edge doesn't get done all that often, and a lot more people would be doing if only The Average Joe® would add a few more bolts--not a lot, mind you, only a few.
For the greater good, Joey, drop some shanks in it. Make the public land accessible. You could even rename it Hedgy, while you're at it! You'd be a hero, dude, and the public acclaim would be deafening.
But you're already hard of hearing, so it's probably not a good idea.
Sorensen owns that route even from his grave. Just as Werner says, he owns it for all time. The route didn't exist beforehand, but it exists now. And your ideas just suck.
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