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abrams
Sport climber
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True, but its a self imposed religion.
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Fluid
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Thanks, Kolos, a voice of reason is appreciated.
Urubko's statements should be mulled over. I think it's a mistake to consider the Sherpas as a monolith, the Sherpas think this or the Sherpas think that. There were some Sherpas on the face fixing rope, and perhaps they are not well trained in climbing (some are and some aren't). The lead overreacts to the rope passing, not realizing its benign nature (and indeed perhaps already fuming over other slights from westerners), and raps down to cause actual danger to the unroped climbers. Strong words ensue, ticking off the lead and perhaps others further. The fixing team recruits other Sherpas from camp 2 for the confrontation, but we don't know what they told them to get them riled up (and it has to be said, reminiscent of small-town lynch mobs). I wonder if many who took part aren't later questioning why more carefully.
Different people on the fixing team would have likely led to a completely different outcome. The individual personalities matter, not deterministic forces outside human control.
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Blackspider. Much of what you share is spot-on. To his cred, Russ Brice climbed some solid routes in his day.
Their have been many-a-strong climber who has guided Everest for income. No-less than the mighty Alex Lowe. Who stopped doing-it, citing the risks. Albeit after having earned a nice little coin to make things a little more comfortable for his family. Wish he was still around. The Sherpa and Balti loved that bloke. The mountain could do with a man of such stature to offer some clarity
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Blackspider. Much of what you share is spot-on. To his cred, Russ Brice climbed some solid routes in his day.
You're right, "non-climber" was too harsh. I was more trying to contrast the way guiding has gone from what it was in the 1990s (top climbers as the lead guides and expedition leaders, less overall pre-fixing, etc.) to what it's been in the 2000s and onward (big commercial teams ran by a "boss" who sticks around base camp and coordinates by radio, routes completely fixed before clients even go up, etc.).
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Splitter,,we at "SOE" will be happy to accept yur App! However, only the indigenous get Sherpa status.
Huh?
Discussion Topic: Sherpas wanted
Topic Authors Original Post - June 2, 2011 10:39 am PT
Ron Anderson - Yep, looking for a dedicated team of five or six! ...
I mean, I know I look like a Canuck, especially when i can't find my flipper (missing two front teeth), smell like a Canuck, spell like a Canuck, swear like a Canuck, and talk like a Canuck, been sayin "eh" all my f'n life (even before it became popular) because I spent my early school years in Cape Breton. And my whole family is Canucks, but I just happened to plop out in Seattle when my folks was living there. We have been back and forth all of our lives. Had duel citizenship until I was twenty-one. Its wasn't easy, but I've finally gotten around to accepting the fact that I'm an Amurican (told ya i spell like a Canuck).
Anyway, so you've got "climber" positions open? Lowly stoopid Amurican climber positions open? To be honest, I kinda had my heart set on a Sherpa position. And not just for the glory of it, b'cuz I've got heart ("dedicated"). How about an honorary Sherpa status with the possibility of advancing to full status. Purdy sure I would blend right in with the rest of the stoopid Amerucans (i've got that characteristic pegged).
I'll get ya a plate of LOBSTER, Corn, and Himalayan condor, and have it ready for your arrival.
The lobster has ta have claws. Stoopid Amurican/Califurnian lobster don't have claws. No Canuck, in his right mind, would touch them things. Especially if he's from the Cabot Trail area and comes from a family of men of the sea (fisherman). I would be missing more than my two front teeth if my pops were still alive and he heard i ate one of those sorry ass excuses for a lobster!!
And regarding the condor, I'm not one to pass up a free meal (something i swore to Yabo, that I would never do, one day) plus, ya might have noticed (see avatar) I have a fondness for raptors. One of my best buddies was one (Sammy the Raven). So I'm sure you (and Yabo) would understand why I'd hav'ta pass on that.
This includes the same freebies the Sherpas get. With the exception of the Hoover-Round chair racing, which is strictly a Sherpa activity.
Umm. Can't say that I'm familiar with that event. But I've been running around in circles all of my life, so I would probably excel at it.
Anyway, as much as I have my heart set on it, I'm becoming a lil' hesitant on this Sherpa gig. To be honest, this pic has been lurking at the back of my craw, kinda like a flashing red light, especially in light of the recent developments in that neck of the woods.
It's a pic of us stoopid American wanna be Sherpas getting a royal Himalayan ass kicking/beat down and possibly ending up in a final resting place in the Khumbu as a permanent reminder to any other fool who shows up with the same aspirations. I like to live dangerously, but, sheeesh. Maybe we should start with a SOD (Sleds over Denali), build up our rep first, eh?
Regardless, I'll be looking forward to that fat lobster dinner, I'll bring a case of primo Canuck suds, and we can discuss it then.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Simone Moro is suggesting (to National Geographic) that the rope fixing team leader was younger and less experienced...
"So, coming to the point. Probably, on a cold, windy day, the leader of the rope-fixing team who saw three foreigners, who climbed in one hour what they climbed in half a day, without a rope, coming to them and offering to help them, probably it provoked jealousy or a kind of envy. Not everybody likes admitting that there is someone faster than you or better than you, okay?"
"Sometimes people like us, who are not clients, are considered not good for business. Because we don’t need Sherpas. We don’t need fixers. We are out of the groove of the commercial part of Everest. The person leading the rope-fixing team was young. Probably not that experienced. Probably not culturally open to accept that someone could climb without their help, as we were doing. So this is the only thing that I can tell you why he reacted so."
Interesting comment, in view of the fact that Moro and his group used Nepali owned company Cho Oyu Trekking for logistics which at minimum means Nepali cooks and base camp services.
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kolos
climber
Hungary
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Ken M
Yes, by agreement of all the climbing groups on Everest this year that bothered to attend a meeting designed to reduce risk, particularly to the sherpa fixing the route, after a sherpa death in that location.
Of course, apparently there was one climbing group that had no interest in preventing injury/death to sherpa, and so, did not attend nor follow the agreement of everyone else on the mountain.
OK, let's see the fact.
Everest has two casualties this year:
DaRita Sherpa (perished May 5 - cardiac arrest)
Mingma Sherpa (April 7) - I think you mean him
According to the report he slipped into a crevasse (http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/sherpa-killed-in-khumbu-icefall)
What is to do with this case? No mention of the often quoted falling ice and by the way it happened between Camp 1 and 2. And if we are at the falling ice topic: I do not understand how possible to climb on this face for literally hundreds if such a high risk is to bomb others with ice chunks?
As per everybody else attended the meeting. I do not think that for example the Urubko/Bolotov couple attended this. This meeting was really for the commercial expeditions in order to rationalize their work and of course decrease the risk. But I highly doubt that it can have an imperative meaning for other expeditions as well.
The Sherpas were there on the face because a couple of commercial expedition hired them to fix the rope for that part.
Why do you make stuff up? It was NOT "a couple", it was everyone else on the mountain, except the three dunces. Apparently everyone, hundreds and hundreds, were represented.
Actually you are making stuff up when you state "everyone else on the mountain". Please check the link here (http://altitudepakistan.blogspot.hu/2013/04/spring-2013-list-of-mountaineering.html) and find that there are other teams which are planning and doing a little bit more than pushing the jumars up for Everest and Lhotse.
But still if everyone else would be doing the same still would not mean that the only exception should adhere the _internal_ rules of the other expeditions. Or maybe the permits are different? This part was not addressed by you...
Let's play with the numbers. If next year 50 percent of the expeditions will be independent then they all will be tentbound when the Sherpas are fixing? Where is the limit? 30%, 58.5%?
In this case we are speaking only plain simple business. The commercial expeditions think that they own this part of the mountain and this attitude is mirrored in the Sherpa fixing team behavior. Any kind of potential problem endanger their business interest and a considerable part of the initial tension came from the fact that the "fixing procedure" was behind schedule.
I think everybody can decide who is obtuse in this story...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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*Others see all this as being because of national tension in Nepal and talk big about how they know more about Sherpa culture then most anyone else in the world.
If you doubt my credentials, type Janice Sacherer Sherpa Nepal into Google and see what you bring up. Or you can look at my facebook page and all the Sherpa friends on it. Or I can send you a complete bibliography that runs to several pages.
Truth be-told, their is dysfunction and in-experience amongst the Sherpa on the mountain. They are happy-as when things are going cruisey, but when it gets tough, they bitch, moan and can be as aggressive as anyone else. Their was good reason for why the British loved the Gurkha soldier for particular roles..
Gurkha soldiers have always come from the middle hill tribes, the Gurung, Magar, and Tamang primarily. Sherpas in general did not join because of their Buddhist beliefs. The odd one who did had to fib and say they belonged to one of the other groups because Sherpas were known to be Buddhists and the British didn't want them. There are plenty of books about Gurkhas past and present that can verify this. While Gurkhas are aggressive, I've never read anywhere that they bitched and moaned. Like other Nepalese however, their stoicism was often commented on
*Physiology makes Sherpa strong for the mountain. But many of them have ownly ever climbed Dablam, Everest and Cho Oyu by fixed ropes. They have never climbed hard technical routes. Only, climbing yak routes. The best Sherpa guides don't do a lot of the rope fixing now, they save energy for the summit days.
The best Sherpas are often working on other mountains. Everest is good steady employment, particularly for the older and younger Sherpas. The Sherpas in their prime who want to make a name for themselves are climbing harder mountains. You might want to check out the award winning book Buried in the Sky for an account of one of the best who not only survived the 2006 disaster on K2 when many world famous western climbers died, but also along with other Sherpas saved other people's lives that day. Chhiring Dorje, the hero of that story is a personal friend by the way. I'm also quoted in quite a few of the Footnotes. After that climb Chhiring's wife gave him an ultimatum about climbing anymore dangerous mountains like K2. Many of the Sherpas who climb on Everest are there not because they don't have the skills to climb elsewhere but because their families want them to stay alive.
And out of curiosity, Orangespororanges, have you climbed Everest, Ama Dablam, or Cho Oyu with or without fixed ropes?
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kolos
climber
Hungary
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Have you addressed the topic what lead to the swear words?
Let's see. "You shouldn't be up here"
"You are a motherf*cker"
I am interested what would be your reaction if you are soloing and somebody abseiling on you.
Here is the crux of your argument. There is no civility in climbing. If you see a rope at the bottom of a route that someone is climbing, it is yours to take. If you are on a climb, you feel free to piss on the following group. If you are on a climb, and encounter a fixed rope with climbers on it, you feel free to use the rope. If you are climbing, and encounter the gear left for retreat, bootay!
You do these things, because they are not prohibited, because you don't recognize the customs and courtesies of climbing. But don't be surprised when you encounter a knuckle sandwich for doing these things that are totally legal. Nice list! Anyway I am glad that there is a little bit more civility where I climb... Not connected to the topic: but what happens after the knuckle sandwhich (i.e. abseiling on others, death threats, knife, stones)? Who will go to jail? I think quite a few people can be really thankful for the 3 climbers not to take legal actions...
So your inarticulate point is that because there are things that are even more dangerous happening on the mountain, that one should not take safety precautions when one can? And you wonder why no one answers your drivel?
I imagine that doubling your harness is a waste of time, because it is much less dangerous than actual lead climbing....... I am still waiting for the long list of the dangers caused by the 3 climbers... For me the only valid point is the crampons over the rope. With minimum collaboration this could have been handled (the similar way as the leading Sherpa created an anchor and abseiled on the climbers...) Dislodged ice is denied even by the Sherpa himself who was the alleged victim.
By the way where are the safety precautions when totally inexperienced people are queuing on the highest mountain? Oops if we enforced them (we could for sure), that would hurt the business... OK, let's ignore them.
Without permission, they took ropes and gear that was not theirs, and set up a route without consulting the owners or those responsible for the route. I imagine that they set the route in the spot most advantagous for THEM, leading others away from their tents, rather than the optimal route.
Do you routinely take others gear and set it up where you want on a route? This is the best! An original idea which never made any reports. Have not you tried screenplay writing? Hollywood is waiting. Maybe the 3 climbers lead the lines to a hidden crevasse and even cut partially the rope.
I agree, they did not get what they deserved. They deserve to be banned from climbing in Nepal, and be bashed by the climbing community. The deserve to lose their sponsorships, because as ambassadors of those companies, they stink. Even the supporters of the Sherpa condemn the violent actions so no comment here. This speaks for itself (and sadly about you...)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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One other thing not discussed that I would find interesting to know more about is how Denis Urubko and his team managed to climb without Sherpa ropes above the icefall and not clash with Sherpas. If nothing else his group had superior timing and political skills to Moro, Steck, and Griffrith and ought to be congratulated for that.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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And finally:
Sherpas never climbed Everest or any other area mountain in the thousands of years they lived in the Khumbu until Westerners arrived.
edit:When a yak can get up the ice fall than we can call it a yak route.
While it's true that Sherpas did not climb the mountains because they were sacred, they did some pretty amazing feats on the nearby passes which range from 18,000 to 19,700 feet. I have heard some very interesting stories about Trashi Labtsa in particular, a dangerous pass where Hillary and Bourdillon were nearly killed by rockfall after completing their Mt. Everest reconnaissance.
The Sherpas were prepared for dragging rich clients up Everest by first dragging yak over passes like Trashi Labtsa. They were prepared for being icefall doctors by their use of ropes, wedges, and pulleys for getting said yak out of crevasses they fell into. As for the yak themselves, I've no doubt they could climb the Khumbu icefall if someone backed the ladders with cloth or wood so they didn't see the depths they were walking over. Big as they are, they're sure footed enough to walk across on the rungs.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 8, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
One other thing not discussed that I would find interesting to know more about is how Denis Urubko and his team managed to climb without Sherpa ropes above the icefall and not clash with Sherpas. If nothing else his group had superior timing and political skills to Moro, Steck, and Griffrith and ought to be congratulated for that.
Yes, we must found out how they escaped being stoned and forced to beg for their lives on their knees by insane Sherpa's. Perhaps they had an agent? Was Ken representing them?
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WBraun
climber
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Sherpas never climbed Everest or any other area mountain in the thousands of years they lived in the Khumbu until Westerners arrived.
That's because they have good brain.
Not like westerners who do stupid sh!t like climbing and end up going nowhere .....
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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According to Alan Arnette, there have been multiple incidents on the Lhotse Face in recent days requiring 3 helicopter rescues.. apparently a U.S. Air Force elite climbing team was involved in some of the events... I wondered if anyone has more details...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Price fixing is illegal under the Sherman Act, not sure about wage fixing, but it doesn't sound legal.
I don't believe the Sherman act is operative outside the US.........
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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OK, let's see the fact.
Everest has two casualties this year:
DaRita Sherpa (perished May 5 - cardiac arrest)
Mingma Sherpa (April 7) - I think you mean him
According to the report he slipped into a crevasse ( http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/sherpa-killed-in-khumbu-icefall);
What is to do with this case?
ITS A DANGEROUS PLACE. How many have died in the last decade climbing El Cap?
I do not understand how possible to climb on this face for literally hundreds if such a high risk is to bomb others with ice chunks?
It would do you some good to DO some ice/snow climbing, before commenting on it. You would know that when the route is confined to one narrow area, the loose stuff is knocked off, and the snow is compacted, making is MUCH MUCH safer for people to ascend/descend single file.
Try it some time.
Actually you are making stuff up when you state "everyone else on the mountain". Please check the link here ( http://altitudepakistan.blogspot.hu/2013/04/spring-2013-list-of-mountaineering.html); and find that there are other teams which are planning and doing a little bit more than pushing the jumars up for Everest and Lhotse.
But still if everyone else would be doing the same still would not mean that the only exception should adhere the _internal_ rules of the other expeditions. Or maybe the permits are different? This part was not addressed by you...
They were not INTERNAL RULES, don't you Hungarians know how to read? They were rules agreed to by the entire climbing community! Why were the three the ONLY ONES up on the face? Why did the Russians turn around?
Next time I'm in Hungary, climbing on a route behind you, I'll just cut your rope in half, because I need some accessory cord..AND THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST DOING THAT. And because your backward country is just that, get the hell out of my way......(irony intended)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jim, just responding to the attacks on my position.....
But more and more, it seems that I'm just responding to trolls, Hungarian or not......
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amax
Trad climber
san diego
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Burch3y's post sums it up: two climbing styles reflecting two very different philosophies are rarely mixed ... :)
Jan: while I appreciate your attempts to provide a balanced and insightful opinion, I am afraid you fail to clearly acknowledge that the underlying reasons for this conflict go far beyond the cultural differences between Sherpas and westerners. If that was indeed the case, why do several western guides of COMMERCIAL expeditions sided with attackers and even made statements that appear to be false by multiple accounts? In fact, many of your earlier posts quote these statements, essentially misrepresenting the reality. One conclusion that can be drawn from these posts is that Moro and Co are unappreciative je**s who took advantage of Sherpa's work low on the mountain and ignored the rules up high. What rules have they broken? Seriously, should we ban people from soloing because they may fall on someone below? How ridiculous is that? I could not disagree more that those climbing in a good style should stay off the mountain simply because there is an attempt to establish a safe highway for clients. Besides, they DID stay away as much as they could.
And for your comments that these guys should have climbed something else and off season, somehow I find it hard to believe that you are unaware of their winter accomplishments on 8000M peaks and other impressive records ... :)
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Who's to say the logistical and organization infrastructure exists to allow Sherpas to completely take over the guiding business? Would the clients who currently pay the sorts of fees that are charged now do so if the logistics and organization currently handed by Himex, IMG, etc. became a nightmare?
A significant segment of the twenty-nine permitted 2013 Everest expeditions are managed and owned in-country. Arun, Asian Trekking, Cho Oyu Trekking, Himalayan Ascents, Monterosa, Rolwaling and others are Nepali-owned.
One could wonder...would Nepali businessmen and their government confederates be even more resistant to the Sherpa acquiring control of the guiding industry than western interests have? Would they exploit and profit by Sherpa toil as Westerners have done...even to the extent of Sherpa looking back to the present era as the halycon days of guiding ??
Is that well-grounded concern, Jan ?
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Kolos, orangesporanges and Jan....thanks for your insight and wisdom on this story.
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