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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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From Mechrist “It doesn't take several minutes with a sledge and fuking chisel to remove a flake that would come off under body weight.”
How many flakes have you beat on with a lump hammer? It’s a lump hammer we are talking about. A sledge hammer is bigger.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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DonPaul "Donald if you're serious everyone will deal with you but I have the feeling you're not. Your argument seems to be that this kind of thing is normal at the Gunks and that Ivan Greene is being singled out unfairly for what everyone does. But there's lots of people on this forum who've climbed at the gunks for 30 years or more and know that's not true."
From Don Perry: What do you think of the French Connection? What year was that put up? Do you know anyone who complained about it? Do you see anything written about it from a negitive point of view?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
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Don,
I never said I didn't believe what is being done in the video. My questions surround why it was filmed, the motivations behind releasing the video, and the fallout.
Apparently, others in the industry have similiar concerns:
http://www.mountainsandwater.com/
...or keep up the Ivan-bashing, it is a lot more fun.
Lets start a list of things we internet tough guys can say or do to Ivan!
here I'll start:
poke out eye with chisel, while Hammertime is playing (kinda like in Resovior Dogs), and when you hear STOP... poke out the other .... HA Ha HA!
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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Mechrist “That is one of the many reasons chipping is so grotesque. You cannot put it back the way it was without making it look even worse. The ONLY solution is to not chip in the first place.”
How familiar are you with the artificial rock industry? Nothing is impossible these days, and I am not talking about building a rocket. Obviously you are not Jesus Christ, you have no faith, and you are an anti-christ.
2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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I've been resisting... but what the fuk... here goes.
Donald Perry, you are an idiot.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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hey wes... congrats on expressing what I'm certain almost the whole taco has been wanting to say. LOL!
oh wait... Werner beat you to it. Sorta.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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Donald---many people were in fact very upset with the French Connection and feared the precedent it might set in the Gunks (and elsewhere). There was no internet, no Taco, Mountainproject, etc back then, so the disgust was expressed verbally, but expressed it was.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 27, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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Does everybody get the irony of the concept that Kludge was busted for a paraphrase from a novel about a cowboy on a ranch near Medicine Bow Wyoming? A place adjacent to the Laramie range and new climbing areas? A serious wit, that Kludge! Hats off to him!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Feb 27, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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Donald---many people were in fact very upset with the French Connection and feared the precedent it might set in the Gunks (and elsewhere). There was no internet, no Taco, Mountainproject, etc back then, so the disgust was expressed verbally, but expressed it was.
Yep. I'm not sure why Donald keeps bring up that incident as an analogy--there was quite a bit of criticism at the time from what I remember.
Curt
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Feb 27, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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^^^ Bam !!!!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 27, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
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^^^^ now THAT is what I'm talking about! Get angry and burn stuff!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 27, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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A serious wit, that Kludge! Hats off to him!
Would have been better if the paraphrasing was remotely cloose to the original.
kludge: "You better be laughing when you say STFU to my face, otherwise you could loose your life."
The Virginian: "If you want to call me that, smile!"
Yes, serious [w]it.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 27, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
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Thats my guess. People found the tools, then hid there waiting like any good detective, knowing the perp would come back. It became too much trouble for Ivan Greene to bring the tools every time so he just left them. * OR, maybe he didn't want to be caught with them at the uberfalls or wherever and it was better to keep them stashed somewhere. Reminds me of drug dealers, they do so many deals they start getting lazy about precautions and then BAM - they sell a kilo directly to a cop and you can't believe they were so casual.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 27, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
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Compton: I never said I didn't believe what is being done in the video. My questions surround why it was filmed, the motivations behind releasing the video, and the fallout.
That's right, let's change the subject and attempt to put the focus on the folks documenting Ivan's behavior rather than keep the focus where it belongs - on the serial chiseler. As to the "fallout", the fallout is exactly what it should be and, in fact, hopefully we will see enough 'fallout' to get Ivan to stop chiseling and to serve as a warning for anyone considering similar behavior - i.e. the more fallout the better.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Feb 27, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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"Donald---many people were in fact very upset with the French Connection and feared the precedent it might set in the Gunks (and elsewhere). There was no internet, no Taco, Mountainproject, etc back then, so the disgust was expressed verbally, but expressed it was."
From Don: They wrote me up. If they were really that upset about it, if they were then there would have been something in writing somewhere. But rather what we have, is that its in both Guides. Williams writes: "After so many years, it's finally free, fallen to the amazing talents and efforts of Rus Clune and Jordan Mills, and is easily the most spectacular 5:13 in the Gunks. ... Variation 2: The French Connnection 5:12d PG ...Jeff Gruenberg and Jack Mileski after chiseling holds, placing protection on rappel, cleaning, toproping and hangdogging.
They put it in the Guide! No one ever said it should come out of there. I don't believe your line of reasoning. Rather I think that there is a lot of hypocrisy that needs to be dealt with first if you really want to make any progress. If the French Connection is not going to come out of the Guide, and the holds will not be put back the way they were before, then its hypocritical to now make Ivan Greene your scapegoat.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 27, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
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What did they write about you? Are you defending this because you were treated unfairly? I started out defending the guy before I saw it was at the gunks. I thought it was just some boulders no one would care about, there must be a million like them in Wyoming alone.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Feb 27, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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"What did they write about you? Are you defending this because you were treated unfairly? I started out defending the guy before I saw it was at the gunks. I thought it was just some boulders no one would care about, there must be a million like them in Wyoming alone."
From Don: Concerning Twilight Zone, for example, "Pox in Vulgaria-The Profit of Impurism Commentary by Mark Robinson. “The next day I saw the same Scary Aria team, young tigers both, try another “new” route. The first 40 feet looked too bold, so they hung a rope at the 40 foot level via a horizontally stretched rope which was anchored from nearby easy climbs. They climbed up to the top of this with a rack of nuts and pins with the intention to blast on though after placing some protection. But they found some old chalk in a dry pocket beneath an overhang, chalk presumably left by Standdard and Bragg. The route was D.B.S.YA. – done by Stannard Years Ago – by conventional means and recorded only by word-of-mouth. The ridicule that followed was intense, and this bizarre pair now conduct their antics in a clandestine fashion on remote cliffs, although they still record they ill-gotten gains daily in the climbing ship guidebooks. Though by far the worst, these two …” This was on Twilight Zone in the 70's."
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Feb 27, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
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I've tried to stay out of this, but the idea that the video depicts some type of "cleaning" operation is laughable. If that boulder is on Preserve property, Ivan should be banned from Preserve lands.
As for the bs from Donald, there was in fact a ton of criticism for Gruenberg and Mileski for chipping the French Connection. Donald says "they put it in the guidebook" as if the guidebook was written by the entire community. One person wrote the guidebook and made the decision to include the chipped route, with the clear description that it wasn't natural. In another spot in the same guidebook, we read that "the achievement came at the expense of the rock itself: holds were chipped and enlarged, forever preventing other climbers from attempting these routes in their natural state."
Had it been me, I would have condemned the entire fiasco in far stronger terms, but Dick wrote what he thought appropriate and certainly never implied Mileski and Gruenberg's behavior was acceptable. The tone and content of his guidebook is his right and privilege, but no one beyond Dick can be held responsible for his editorial decisions, and it is time for Donald to stop saying the "community" didn't protest (enough) with Dick's guidebook text as his only "evidence." There was plenty of protest. The net result, two years later, was an explicit rule by the Preserve banning such practices and banning climbers who engaged in them from the Preserve.
The question of how much alteration of the natural scene is "acceptable" is one subject to many nuances, and local perspectives can vary considerably. Sport climbing, for better or worse, has made manufactured climbs commonplace and acceptable and opened a whole new perspective on the degree to which the natural scene can be altered to increase its human entertainment value. There is no going back, but every now and then something outrageous emerges, and this heavy-handed alteration of a lonely boulder somewhere in the puckerbrush seems to be a galvanizing example.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 27, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
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Donald, this is really the tract you want to take on just arriving here? Seriously? Your credibility is further tanking with every post you make.
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