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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:12am PT
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I just know some land manager is gonna use this thread at an upcoming conference.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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This is a classic thread: rock (well, mud) climbing, hook anchors, ponies and lots 'o controversy. Would that route go free if you used the bashie holes as finger pockets?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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Sure, no danger at all, bolts have yet been placed and even chain anchors! Well, the typical thing someone expects in a hard aid-climbing route...
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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This thread is worthless without Pelut, is he scared of the mean Americans?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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more likely he's scared of the f*#king ponies
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Sure, no danger at all, bolts have yet been placed and even chain anchors! Well, the typical thing someone expects in a hard aid-climbing route...
Since "Look Out! Danger!" isn't a hard aid-climbing route, as is apparently mostly A1/2 with a few sections of A3, bolts and chain anchors are hardly out of place.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 18, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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Ugh RH, To repeat what you refused to read earlier.
Quoting Blackspider upthread
RH Says: What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...[/Quote]
Blackspider responds:
This is a completely apples-to-oranges comparison because the aid climbing grade scale has been widely readjusted over the past 30 years, and many "A5" routes from the same rough time period as Wings of Steel are now considered A4 or even A3/+. Also, Ammon had access to modern gear (small cams, etc.) that the FA team didn't (don't know how much this affected the grade but he made a point of mentioning that it helped on certain pitches). Whereas Intifada has been subject to downgrades by multiple parties without any reference (that I can tell) to "new wave/old school" grading discrepancies, nor does newer equipment appear to be a factor; it was just over-graded.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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It really is something wrong with rivet hanger.
I'll introduce another fact. Check out the Look out! Danger! uploaded on youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7dT0CpKZg); and tell me how many bashie holes do you see?
Will Jensen release a video showing his ascent as announced?
No as he has already have told you.
Will he explain why he placed 2 bolts 2 meters on the ground as Pelut showed in a pic
He already has explained why he placed one bolt. If you look at Pelut's pic again you would see 1 bolt.
Is this fact compatible with trying to climb a really hard aid climbing route?
Yes, good anchors is usually allowed on hard aid climbs.
Check out the video and you'll se more wedged pitons than bashie holes...
The video evidence again... Do you realize that it is possibly to place hundreds of bashie holes without showing all of them on video?
And of course, you won't see three angles arround the 1st belay...
You are so dense. Richard said that the holes could take angles not that Pelut necessary had placed angles.
Well, WOS has been downrated for SA team (Ammon and Kait) from A5 to A3+... Not so scary as FA team claimed.
already explained a couple of times.
But just a difference, Ammon showed much more respect for the route and didn't retobolt it and reported the ascent after and not 1,5 months before...
I believe that it was well known before the ascent that ammon would climb the route and that it was going to be a film and article about the climb. Not a large difference from making a homepage about a project.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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RH: Since you ARE now flat-out accusing me of lying, I will ask you what would have motivated me to lie.
Oh, right... your theory is that I was pre-motivated to "discredit the route," so I went up there TO drill out the route and lie about it to "discredit the route."
Okay, what would have motivated me to do that?
Oh, right... your theory is that I was motivated by my prejudice against non-American climbers.
FAIL
The problem you face now is that it is clear to everybody that the ONLY "defense" you have of Pelut and this "route" now is to claim that I substantially and materially lied about the tactics of the FA. That's going to be a mighty hard case to make....
1) I have a multi-decade history in the climbing community of being brutally honest about everything I've done on my ascents. I've been honest even when it clearly wasn't in my interest to be so honest. So, you'd have to come up with some theory of motivation that would explain why SUDDENLY I abandoned my honesty and integrity JUST to discredit this one particular route. Do you really think that your "prejudice" theory (in the absolute absence of ANY evidence to support it) is a strong enough motivation to make me abandon decades of brutal honesty?
2) The documented history of my motivations for the ascent, coupled with what my friends and family can attest, clearly reveal that I went up on the SA believing that it was going to be a hard, worthy route. Over-rated, to be sure. But hard and worthy nevertheless. Look at the first post of this thread, for example. I was shocked and dismayed at what I was finding on the route! So, it's documented, and witnesses can certainly attest, that I did NOT go up on the SA TO discredit the route. The route discredited itself. I didn't need to "help" it discredit itself.
Finally, you claim that I could say anything I wanted because I was alone.
Two responses:
1) If I would have done the SA with, say, Mark Smith, you would then just claim that we are both liars. If I would have brought up two people, you would then just claim flat-out conspiracy! The bottom line is that this all comes down to the demonstrated integrity of the SA participants. Numbers don't matter. Integrity matters. And I have demonstrated integrity.
2) You claim that Pelut was in Moab during much of my ascent. Wow... just wow. So, let's get this straight. Pelut is IN Moab. He's reading my blog and sees what I'm reporting as I go. He (supposedly) is trying to meet up with me. But he doesn't hike up to the route ONE TIME... just ONCE during my whole ascent to check things out?!?!? If I was "alone" during the ascent, it's only because Pelut couldn't be bothered to come up there to document for himself how I was (supposedly) destroying his route. If our roles would have been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be camping out at the base of the route with my various cameras, monitoring EVERYTHING the SA was doing on the route! But Pelut just can't be bothered. Far easier for him to let his proxy (you) float hopeless theories.
Ridiculous!
This whole exchange really does make the case about why a FULL SA had to be done. Pelut-defenders will grasp at the tiniest of straws to "defend" this "ascent." Fortunately I DO have the credibility on every level to have reported on the TRUTH of what that FA was. And TRUTH is what I have reported.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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Note: my English is no so good but I try :)
Americans big wall on the mud is very hard and I try my beast to make good root for all not just Americans. But now American lieing peros talk the excriment about my skil and soul and SA lies are to muck to endure so I will wish you a male penis en your madres ojo bastardo from my steely penis from Espania! Viva Pelut!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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RH: There's something fundamental that you clearly fail to understand.
As soon as you pull out the drill at an anchor, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be "heroic" at that point. You keep saying that Pelut did these "heroic" things at anchors, and you submit pictures showing a rat's nest of cordage and slings. You contrast that with my simple bolt anchors, claiming that my anchors are "weak."
EVERY one of Pelut's anchors had drilled bashies except for the one anchor I never went to (the one at his Hilton ledge, because I bivied 20 feet to the left of that spot). I can't speak to that one anchor, because I didn't visit it. But I can speak to EVERY other one. And many of his anchors consisted of just 2 or 3 bashies drilled into blank rock.
See if you can wrap your (obviously) pea-brain around what I'm going to try to explain to you here.
Once you pull out the drill at an anchor, you can MAKE that anchor anything you want it to be. You are NO LONGER conforming to what the rock presents you. You are DOING TO the rock what you please.
At that point, the ONLY question concerns what you are going to put into the holes you drill. YOU get to decide how dangerous the anchor will be. The ROCK is not deciding it for you. YOU are deciding with the drill.
There is a substantive difference between conforming yourself to the rock and drilling! It IS heroic to takes risks to conform yourself to the ROCK. But there CAN BE no "heroism" in ANY drilled anchor. It's impossible in principle. Here's why....
Pelut drilled 2 and 3 bashie anchors. Why was that "heroic," while 2 or 3 bolts in that same spot is not "heroic?"
Well, on your line of thinking, the bashies are "heroic" because (I guess) they are not as secure as bolts.
Okay, well, since Pelut, with the drill, was solely deciding just HOW "heroic" an anchor was going to be (remember that he's NOT conforming to what the rock presents), then WHY didn't he drill just ONE bashie and call that good?
Why didn't he sling that one big hummock (as you show in one picture) and call that good all by itself? Why did he drill bashies at that anchor too?
Why didn't he drill TINY bashies instead of BIG ones?
Why didn't he drill one, single, tiny copperhead and call that good?
Why didn't he drill one, single bathook and call that good?
Why didn't he just chisel out a single, small finger pocket and have Esther hang herself from that while belaying? THAT would have been FAR more amazing than what he did!
THOSE scenarios would have been MUCH more "heroic" than what Pelut did!!!
But he didn't do any of those things. He DRILLED, but he made his anchors basically secure BY drilling.
But as soon as you are DRILLING to make your anchors secure, then why not make them truly SECURE? If you are after drilled-security, then GET IT! And if you are not after security, then keep going until you can have totally natural anchors, conforming yourself to WHATEVER the rock gives you. And if the rock doesn't give you enough, so that you HAVE to drill at anchors, then DRILL IT RIGHT and have a secure anchor!
Once you are drilling at an anchor, make it GOOD, because there is ZERO reason to make it bad! When you are conforming to the features of the rock, you can be heroic. When you are not employing features in ANY sense, then you CANNOT be heroic.
If Pelut was after "heroic" anchors, he should not have used the drill AT ALL at ANY of his anchors. It is a totally ARTIFICIAL distinction to claim that Pelut's anchors were somehow heroic, yet mine were weak. BOTH sets of anchors are just drilled anchors.
My anchors are HONEST. They are good, bolted anchors in blank rock. Pelut's anchors are DISHONEST. They are "artificial difficulty," claimed to be "hard," but are really quite secure. And his anchors just draw an ARBITRARY line of "difficulty," when, in FACT, he could have made them much, much more "heroic" than he did. Conversely, he could have made them much, much better than he did. Artificial difficulty is not "heroic" in principle, because you are NOT conforming to what the rock presents. When you abandon features and drill in blankness, HEROISM is right out the window!
He gets NO respect for his drilled anchors. And my drilled anchors are completely comparable to his, while being HONEST.
(Oh, btw, I didn't drill out any new trenches, as you are NOW claiming. If there's a trench, Pelut drilled it. And that includes the MANY in that first seam, some 1 foot apart from each other. Guess he was a bit haired out at the start of the first pitch, because he SEWED it up with trenched heads!)
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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uh oh. the trolling just took a step up in the aiders. :)
Richard - I think you have made your point well. the troll will never end if you keep feeding it.
+1 - for removing all traces and let the tower reclaim itself
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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This is such a riveting thread.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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Finally, from Pelut:
SA lies are to muck to endure....
No, bud, SA TRUTH is too much for you to endure. And your own video clips show your incompetency. You can float whatever "explanation" you want, but calling me a liar is not among your viable options!
You drilled that route bottom to top. You drilled a LOT, drilling much more than was even necessary HAD you been willing to stand up in your aiders!
You drilled at anchors, even the "hook anchor," and you drilled virtually every placement you stood on! And THEN, you claimed the world's greatest difficulty.
The hubris you demonstrate, even in your video clips, is ASTOUNDING, particularly given that your video clips demonstrate incompetency rather than heroism!
You based your RIDICULOUS rating on a late ascent of Intifada AFTER that route had been down-rated for almost 20 YEARS, and after the tactics Beyer employed were WIDELY and publicly discredited! And you thought of Intifada as being some "standard" of hard, American aid climbing, when Intifada was actually no standard of ANYTHING at all. And, even yet, Intifada DOES follow a natural line, which your "route" does NOT do! It uses FEATURES of the rock, which your "route" does not do.
It must have been really disappointing for you to keep finding those seams to be totally bottomed and useless. Well, I guess not, actually, because you were just in DRILLING MODE and so could just trench the whole way up them!
And your "E.T." feature that you found so fearsome... why so fearsome, Pelut? It was totally solid, and you just drilled bashies across three feet under it anyway, not having the huevos to go anywhere NEAR it!
If you are so bad-ass, here are some questions for you....
WHY haven't you done a SINGLE El Cap route?
WHY haven't you done even a moderate El Cap route. Your proxy likes to chide about the (supposed) down-rating of Wings of Steel. So, at A3+, that's only a moderate El Cap route! Almost EASY! So, before you call me a liar (safely from across the sea), go climb WoS and see what a merely "moderate" American route is. That will teach you a fundamental point about how ridiculous it is for you to even TRY to float that I'm lying about your POS "route."
Look, bub, even if I were a liar, I didn't NEED to bring your POS down to my level. Even a MODERATE American aid climb is FAR beyond the level of your POS. So, I didn't NEED to lie about what I found on your POS, and neither you nor your proxy can offer any believable motivation I might have had for lying about your POS.
Intifada was NO STANDARD, yet you thought it was hard. And if you had even one nut in your sack, you would have done some moderate El Cap routes and then some hard ones. But you don't have the sack to climb even a moderate route like WoS. You are truly and obviously desperate to call ME a liar.
You came over here in absolute ignorance of our standards, our ethics, our history, or our typical tactics (particularly on sandstone, which is a WHOLE NEW DEAL of its own), and you proceeded to DRILL UP a NON-LINE and then spray to the world that you had set a NEW STANDARD of aid climbing difficulty. And it was ALL, completely, in toto based upon utter IGNORANCE.
Then your proxy gets on here and spends months trying to "defend" your travesty in ten different ways, finally getting beaten down to the level of accusing me of lying. And you, realizing that that ridiculous, last-ditch effort is your last vestige of hope, cling to it. But YOU know better. When you look in the mirror, YOU know better. YOU know, and you are starting to realize the extent of it, YOU know that you totally botched this thing and that you were RIDICULOUSLY ignorant on every front.
You came over here to show the world what a bad-ass you are. But your big mistake was in touting a route as your STANDARD that I did the SA of, and your second biggest mistake was in basing your ridiculous rating on that "standard," which could ONLY have the effect of making me curious (and skeptical). THAT led me to do the SA of your pile, and, unfortunately for you, everybody in the climbing community that knows me KNOWS that I do not lie. So, you could not have had a worse (for you) SA, because I'm about the last climber your last-ditch "lie" theory is going to stick to! So, all you succeeded in doing was to show the world how incompetent you are and the level of hubris you have. That's it.
The whole thing is pathetic top to bottom. And I would have let this go months ago, except that your proxy, and now you, try to float this crap about me lying.
Buddy, if you knew a shred of American climbing history, you would know that I will fight to the end of the Earth for my reputation for honesty and integrity! I am tenacious at a level you cannot even IMAGINE! But, of course, you are, yet again, IGNORANT.
And, if you were reading my blog, and you were IN Moab during my SA, then WHY didn't you come to the route to document HOW I was lying? You COULD have come there during most of the SA to show the world how I was botching your route and then (supposedly) lying about it. YOU had the opportunity to set the record straight at the very time the record was being formed! YOU were there! And you supposedly wanted SO MUCH to meet with me.
Then, WHY didn't you?
What a huge, steaming pile of bovine excrement!
So, why don't you just apologize humbly and thoroughly for your UTTER BOTCH JOB, admit that you have been entirely ignorant about everything (including how to aid climb at a world class level), and go back to school?
If you now moan about how "harsh" that is, tough! YOU are the one claiming I'm a liar, so face the music about what you have done! Pony up to the world about how you really blew it this time.
Honestly, if you would do that, you would find me not your enemy. I have no ax to grind with you, OTHER than that you are now calling me a liar. To me, ethics are between people, not between people and the rock. I don't give a rodent's testicle about what you did on the Titan itself (I'm different from many here in that respect). I CARE about the ethics of what you DID compared to what you CLAIMED, including your spraying about how awesome you are, when you clearly are not. I CARE about what climbing IS and what it MEANS. And I very much care about being called a liar!
So, just come clean, apologize for what you did, and in my mind it's over. Keep calling me a liar, though, and you are in for a real fight. And I mean that, believe me!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Keep calling me a liar, though, and you are in for a real fight. And I mean that, believe me!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Now he's the critic and someone else is in the hot seat... a little too ironic dontchya think?
Poor dingleberry has been pissed at me every since I dissed on his squeeze, Beyer. Pity. It distorts judgement. So much so that he can't distinguish the difference between being unjustly in the hot-seat and being justly in the hot-seat.
And, yup, I don't take kindly to being called a liar. What about you, dingleberry?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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Splitclimber is right. I'm done here. Pelut or his proxy want to keep publicly floating the "liar" bit, and I'll pursue other avenues.
Ghost, I'm not QUITE as bad off as either of those two. Getting there, but not quite yet.
I AM pissed now, though.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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*Yawn* Just woke up, time to see if I missed anything...
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 18, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
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Pelut-
each time you use the drill it is considered a hole in the "hole count" This includes drilled copperheads or "bashies".
on the titan route, how many holes on each pitch and for each belay?
on the kingfisher route, how many holes on each pitch and for each belay?
lastly, on weird science, did you drill any holes or was the bolt kit left on the ground?
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