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michae1
Gym climber
san jose
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i think tax's are high enough , I am sick of the government increasing tax's because they miss-spend what they are getting, and come to us to bail them out, they can't control it now
what would make anyone think that they could handle health care. All of the fancy math and theory
is good in a sterile environment , I live in the real world, this idea of entitlement from cradle to
grave will do nothing but create a country of people looking to others to solve their problems
and not take responsibility for themselves
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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with fatty's new diet , the crazies would find empty cuppoards or worse yet , a 45 sig sauer looking them in their crazed eyes....single payer rules....!
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apogee
climber
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"I am saying that everyone is entitled to food, clothing, shelter and basic health care."
I don't think anyone has a constitutional right to healthcare. I think it's a matter of interpretation that the constitution might extend to the concept of healthcare. Likewise, I don't think there is a constitutional right to food, clothing or shelter, either.
And to be very clear: I don't think that, in general, the government has the primary responsibility to provide those things for the citizens.
To say otherwise, that is, that individuals have a constitutional right to food/clothing/shelter/healthcare, and that it should be provided by the federal government...that sounds a lot like socialism to me.
This said, the government, as empowered by the citizenry, has the responsibility to help ensure those things are reasonably accessible to all who are reasonably able to achieve them. In the case of healthcare, this very well may mean managing some part of the insurance system that citizens contribute to, and receive benefits from.
This may be stating the obvious...or maybe not. The issue of healthcare as a 'right' is one of the most highly contentious elements of the argument, while at the same time, there is little clear universal understanding as to what that means.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I don't think anyone has a constitutional right to healthcare. I think it's a matter of interpretation that the constitution might extend to the concept of healthcare. Likewise, I don't think there is a constitutional right to food, clothing or shelter, either.
perhaps. but don't basic human needs -- which i believe are basic human rights -- trump constitutional rights?
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apogee
climber
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"perhaps. but don't basic human needs -- which i believe are basic human rights -- trump constitutional rights?"
I think this definition is at the core of the issue, and is either poorly understood or manipulated strongly by those with an agenda- esp. opponents of any kind of healthcare reform. They like to portray the issue as one of individuals who make little or no contribution to society sucking from the efforts of those who do.
What is the role of government in the lives of it's citizens? I believe the government should help ensure that basic needs that citizens have are reasonably accessible, and to maintain as low a profile in the lives of citizens as possible. Using healthcare as an example, the purely capitalist approach has completely failed, and has resulted in significant detriment to the health of citizens, and has made healthcare much less accessible. Therefore, I believe it is time to see greater governmental intervention- much more direct than simply regulating commercial insurance providers- I think the federal government, by removing or reducing the profit motive in the insurance system, would provide a better resource to the citizens for one of our basic needs.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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what would make anyone think that they could handle health care. All of the fancy math and theory is good in a sterile environment , I live in the real world, this idea of entitlement from cradle tograve will do nothing but create a country of people looking to others to solve their problems and not take responsibility for themselves
Well, what could make a government think they could handle health care is the fact that the vast majority of western democracies already do so and their stats on costs are almost ALWAYS cheaper than ours for better results. Using loaded words like "entitlements" is a bit right-wing disingenuous as they never trot it out for fireman, police, or the military.
Hey Lois and anyone else facing a layoff. With the stimulus package, if you've been laid off and lost your insurance, the government will pay %65 of your cobra for up to 15 months.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/cobra.html
"Eligible individuals pay only 35 percent of their COBRA premiums and the remaining 65 percent is reimbursed to the coverage provider through a tax credit. To qualify, individuals must experience a COBRA qualifying event that is the involuntary termination of a covered employee's employment. The involuntary termination must occur during the period that began September 1, 2008 and ends on February 28, 2010. The premium reduction applies to periods of health coverage that began on or after February 17, 2009 and lasts for up to 15 months."
You can still sign up for Cobra, I believe, months after losing your job to layoff
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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I do believe that there needs to be a minimal level of healthcare that cannot afford it at all, or ever. To not do so creates a significant impact on the society: some of those people get care anyway, and that indirect cost gets passed back to others. To Lois's point, simply allowing those at the lowest levels of income to sicken and die ultimately will affect others, in the same way a weakened, diseased plant will affect otherwise healthy ones around it. Aside from these practical considerations, there are the much more subjective ethical ones: as a great society, we should have higher aspirations than to ignore those who are sickened amongst us.
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michae1
Gym climber
san jose
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Leb ,you can call it what ever you want , a fee , a sur- charge, it is a tax ,no more no less
as for fireman ,police , military what make's you think those are so well run, here in the bay -area
we have a few city's going bankrupt over the way they have been running there cities services and
what western nation's are we talking about? and what is the standard of living there? as for us here
in america i think most people would agree we live longer and stay active longer now then at any
other time in history all with out the government being in health care
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apogee
climber
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"...this idea of entitlement from cradle to
grave will do nothing but create a country of people looking to others to solve their problems and not take responsibility for themselves"
That concerns me as well, though I think the issue of entitlement and some individuals sucking from the efforts of others is blown way out of perspective by those with strict, unyielding interpretations of individualism. The majority of individuals want to succeed on their own, and don't want to sponge off of others. The few who do not are paraded front and center as 'I told you so' examples, when in fact they are the very small exception to the rule.
Though I think the government should play a greater role in managing healthcare/coverage, I also think the monitoring for abuse should be strict and diligent, with various mechanisms by which those who draw from the benefits contribute back into it in one way or another. There should also be established time or benefit threshholds, which when reached, reduce benefits correspondingly.
Again, most individuals want to succeed, and want to do it themselves. Sometimes individuals find themselves in circumstances not of their making (esp. related to being a casualty of a capitalist system)- those who have contributed to the overall system deserve a level of support to help them regain their role as another fully contributing citizen.
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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"The police rescue you from crime, the fire dept rescues you from fire, the military rescues from other countrys invading us
AND health care rescues you from sickness, its a basic human right, and protected by our Constitution
and we should start to demand it"
The government has two purposes 1) security as in Defense 2) secure freedom. Once it does more than that it has become a State which plunders from one group to give it to another, legalized theft. Theft is wrong no matter what your excuse is. Once theft has become legal the freedom begins to be lost.
A wise one named Mises said something like "Government is the negation of Liberty" And so many of you cry for this government to take control, to plunder, and to rule our health care.
I love you all for the climbers you are, who have roped up with me, or enjoyed beers on the bridge, or shared beta but your love of the Government amazes me.
Have a great weekend Amigo's!
Will
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The government has two purposes 1) security as in Defense 2) secure freedom. Once it does more than that it has become a State which plunders from one group to give it to another, legalized theft. Theft is wrong no matter what your excuse is. Once theft has become legal the freedom begins to be lost.
With big government out of the way, rest assured, big business steps in to form monopolies, set the terms and turn the screws.
They practically do now, it's just safer to rule via big government through corporate purchase than by ruling direct.
Or religion steps in to rule.
No matter what, you don't end up with peaceful families co-existing in some ideal world. Show me somewhere in the developed world that has anything even half way there.
Peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I'd think there are a lot if people whose investment portfolios are crammed full with insurance funds. Haven't insurance investments been one of the more aggressive growth options?
Gotta be wondering what will happen to their value if the cattle aren't being herded to graze... I can't help but think that is what has many people against the idea of weakening the health insurance industry's power.
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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It is hilarious that I have been accused of drinking fox news kool aid, haven’t seen world or national or cable news in awhile. If I make it home for the local news, I watch that. No fear mongering, I simply do not look to government for solutions, they are the problem.
I do read from people throughout history. Karl’s post says it best, you gov lovers, shall we say “Statists”? Prefer the gov to big biz or religion. Simple enough, I choose individual Liberty. You sacrifice Liberty for a marketing job sold to you by the State.
Dinner is on, I realize I will not convince anyone, keep on Statists, for I surely will.
Aloha,
will
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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Nohea.....with all due respect.....wise up you knucklehead like Dr. F said....rj
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michae1
Gym climber
san jose
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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What was the founding father's intention for the role of the federal government, to play in our lives?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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"We need to examine the root causes of why our health care is not affordable."--LEB
Correct, follow the money trail--who is making money/profit?
It's not affordable for the same reason writing a climbing guide book is sooo not lucratively profitable--the middlemen and service folk get the bulk of the money, and the customer pays too much for a competitive service.
I sincerely hope that Lois gets a fantasy fulfilled and bags a thousand poster...
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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The politicians that keep denying american citizens affordable health care while taxing those same citizens to help pay for their own cadillac health insurance plans , are morally corrupt and delusional hypocrites....let's let the american people vote on this issue.....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 10, 2010 - 01:12am PT
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Jan 10, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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BVB.....didn't know obama was behind this ....thanks for the heads up .....
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apogee
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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"What was the founding father's intention for the role of the federal government, to play in our lives?"
It's an interesting question, but pretty moot: it's kinda like asking what the bible meant- you're gonna get a lot of interpretations. More importantly, it is 2010, not 1776....things do change, much to the chagrin of conservatives who believe life was so much better when they were a kid. Or their Dad was a kid. Or their Grandfather. Or the Founding Fathers. Whatevvah.
It's 2010, and not 1776. It's supposed to be a 'government of the people, for the people'. Health insurance is definitely for the people, in my interpretation.
'Follow the money'
If you want to clearly understand this issue, look at how much this country spends, and what we get for it. While your at it, look at who is benefitting from what we are spending. Case closed.
Or you can stay in your ideologic echo chamber. That's fine, too.
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