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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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There is NO "I believe". It's absolute fact.
God is NOT doing a lousy job and sucks.
The idiots in this world are doing a lousy job and suck!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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All the foolish rascals try to blame their father for all the nonsense they do.
The father says now you suffer RASCAL ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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The father says now you suffer RASCAL ......
I guess those Haitians must have been real rascals. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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Werner, could I get some of the chalk you use? I'm sure it must be filled with absolute facts or you'd been dead a long time ago.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Ghost
Yes you are just speculating how everything works.
Jumping to some guessing type solution to how things work will not help one understand.
Do the work correctly and you'll understand correctly ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 25, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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A condition human being is infected with the four defects.
1) Is sure to commit mistakes
2) Is invariably illusioned
3) Has the tendency to cheat others
4) Is limited by imperfect senses.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 25, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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Thru the Bible - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
Hosea 2:1-16
Monday, January 25, 2010 http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp
Proverbs 26:1, Like snow in summer or rain in harvest,
so honor is not fitting for a fool.
I Will Bless the Lord
Of David.
Psalm 26, Vindicate me, O Lord,
for I have walked in my integrity,
and I have trusted in the Lord without wavering.
2 Prove me, O Lord, and try me;
test my heart and my mind.
3 For your steadfast love is before my eyes,
and I walk in your faithfulness.
4 I do not sit with men of falsehood,
nor do I consort with hypocrites.
5 I hate the assembly of evildoers,
and I will not sit with the wicked.
6 I wash my hands in innocence
and go around your altar, O Lord,
7 proclaiming thanksgiving aloud,
and telling all your wondrous deeds.
8 O Lord, I love the habitation of your house
and the place where your glory dwells.
9 Do not sweep my soul away with sinners,
nor my life with bloodthirsty men,
10 in whose hands are evil devices,
and whose right hands are full of bribes.
11 But as for me, I shall walk in my integrity;
redeem me, and be gracious to me.
12 My foot stands on level ground;
in the great assembly I will bless the Lord.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 25, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Then what WOULD you tell someone who asked Jesus into their life, prayed everyday for more favorable circumstances, begged Jesus to make the molestation stop, yet got no response... for years? How would you explain there is a loving, all knowing God who deeply cares for his well being, without suggesting that the 6 year old kid was fukd because he didn't believe enough, or ask enough, or was in some other way deficient? How would you explain Jesus cares, when clearly he didn't?
This is a tough question and the only "justice" visible comes when you allow reincarnation into the picture. Somebody I know was molested horribly and it left deep impressions on them. They sought healing and is now beyond most of us on the path to happiness and emotional integrity. They also went deep into meditation and even was able to remember events from past lives....past lives where they had done violent things to their children for selfish reasons. We should have no judgement for that because we have ALL done monsterous things in our ancient past.
This is the real evolution, we suffer the reflections from our past, heal and move forward on a higher level. We are living in a house of mirrors where our world reflects us. Change yourself and the world changes around us.
Now this person's pain made them look deeply within and find themselves in ways that folks born comfortable may never see. They know this pain from the inside out and will use this knowledge to help others who have been abused to heal. They have begun to make peace and understanding with their abuser (who was also abused) and this brings more healing and light into the world.
Yes, this is a tough and brutal world. It reflects what is tough and brutal within us. When we work out our crap we go to worlds that reflect us better or the world around us gets better.
El Cap is also a brutal, dangerous place full of danger, pain, deprivation and more. Why do we choose it instead of going to club med?
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 25, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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The idea that humanity has something like “free will” is a stretch. Humans are directed by evolutionary need: the need to reproduce, to protect a territory for that purpose, etc. We are driven by those needs that are often at odds with the imposed morality of any given mythological system. To say we have the free will to choose between a moral dictate born of some mythology and the desires and needs imposed upon us by nature is ridiculous; our choices are weighted by forces over which we have almost no control. It seems “god” has set up a system of entrapment not one of free will, otherwise how is it that we are all sinners?
Paul states in Romans 11:32 that we are only condemned so that god may grant us salvation. This is where Augustine gets his “O felix culpa.” Sin is a function of “gods” pleasure in granting us grace.
Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. But the choice assumes the pre-existence of evil! Where did it come from if not god himself? Finally the problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice anyway. It all makes little sense.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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"Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. But the choice assumes the pre-existence of evil! Where did it come from if not god himself? Finally the problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice anyway. It all makes little sense."
If god is omnipotent and determines everything, how it is we are held culpable for anything at all? So that we might be held culpable something had to be introduced. Free will. The principal of omnipotence was formulated without forethought, in order to impress, The logical consequences were not grasped until someone asked a question.
Western theological structure, at least, is so riven with direct logical contradictions, one is forced to a frankly obvious conclusion. Our received structure was constructed by many unrelated people over a long period of time, each person responding to local exigencies. What to say to bring this or that village and that population under control? This is a command and control structure built by topsy. At all times, however, the words had to sound resonant. Or even unctious.
So we have a string of resonant words all unrelated to each other.
Karl uses a word connected to something elemental.
"This is a tough question and the only "JUSTICE" visible"...........
What is justice?
When we seek justice, what are we really seeking?
Vengeance?
Ex post facto victory?
What?
Almost five centuries before christ, Socrates had already identified the heart.
"Perfect Truth" is not the heart.
The question is everything.
Below Jan suggests that Eastern theology raises the question of balance and agreement. To what degree is our behavior in conflict with natural law.
Western theology attempts to paint things either "black" or "white." One side of an imaginary line(perfect truth) we draw in the sand.
Why this immense dichotomy?
If we had not taken the route dating from 0 AD but had instead further developed Socrates questions from five centuries before, might not our theology resemble Eastern thought much more closely?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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jstan-
Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. But the choice assumes the pre-existence of evil! Where did it come from if not god himself? Finally the problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice anyway. It all makes little sense.
The best explanation I've heard for this again comes from India. If everything were good, there would only be God. In order to have a material universe, a negative element had to be added to hold it in existence. This negative element exists at many levels from the world of physics (think positive and negative charges on particles for example) to that of human beings.
The main way that it exists for human beings, is that they think the material world is all there is, and do not realize that it was created and penetrated with intelligence.They also mistake their own petty lives as a one time drama. Meanwhile, if the negative element should ever be suspended, the universe would instantly collapse and only God would remain.
If you remember from my Hindu posting, the universe is God's entertainment, and our job is to learn to live in harmony with natural and spiritual laws, but we have many lifetimes to do that. Definitely less grim than the western interpretation of this life being a one time testing ground.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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Jstan wrote
Karl uses a word connected to something elemental.
"This is a tough question and the only "JUSTICE" visible"...........
What is justice?
When we seek justice, what are we really seeking?
Vengeance
In our criminal system, such may be the case. I think you are well aware that in this case, we are talking about figuring out the mechanics of why bad things seem to happen to good people and why.
There is a golden rule, treat people as we wish to be treated. It's more like a LAW because ultimately we WILL be treated as we treat people...there is just a time lag. Our souls know inside and we evolve and move forward in this process of experiencing the reflections of our past actions
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 25, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. "
 Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945
This does not prove that Einstein was an atheist, merely that according to the exacting dogmatic standards of a Jesuit priest (of the past at least; today they are often quite liberal) he would be so considered. This is my point exactly. Just because someone calling themselves Christian defines a person one way or the other, doesn't make it so. Whether one is an atheist or not is also between themselves and presumably God. Religionists have no business making judgements on behalf of God. In fact, didn't Jesus say just that, "Judge not lest ye be judged"?
Anyone that thinks Mark Twain was a deist needs to read his "Letters from Earth," a scathing analysis of Christianity in particular.
This is another of my points. People on this thread who are mad at Christianity, and it's hard not to be if you look at history or the fundamentalists' modern day attempts at taking over the teaching of science and U.S. civic life, are confusing certain interpretations of Christianity with anti religious and anti hypocrisy tendencies and outright atheism.
They are also making gross generalizations about Christianity. Real Orthodox Christianity (Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox) for example, and the second largest Christian denomination in the world by the way, see all of creation including sexuality as good, never accepted the Augustinian concept of original sin, and believe that God provides for everyone according to their experiences and understandings. The lack of belief in the western Christian world is seen as the fault of the western churches, not Christianity.
They also believe in a theory called theosis, the process of becoming like God and claim that many have attained it. The Asian equivalent of the word would be enlightenment.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 25, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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Satan Allowed to Test Job
Job 1:6-12, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
Jesus Foretells Peter's Denial
Luke 21:31-34, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 33 Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”
1 John 4:4, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 26, 2010 - 03:27am PT
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"If you remember from my Hindu posting, the universe is God's entertainment, and our job is to learn to live in harmony with natural and spiritual laws, but we have many lifetimes to do that. Definitely less grim than the western interpretation of this life being a one time testing ground."
The plane of human misery and suffering is for god's entertainment? Some god! Best he find a new occupation. Look what he did for India! Walk through its poverty, its misery and disease, its crippling caste system and celebrate the liberation of its deities. Watch the old widows become suttee and the children become prostitutes or starve and you can celebrate the enlightenment of gurus who can only tell you to be like "me."
The east is no more enlightened than the west, in fact, considerably less so. There is no harmony in ignorance and foolishness.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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"The main way that it exists for human beings, is that they think the material world is all there is, and do not realize that it was created and penetrated with intelligence."
You know it is easy to feel this way but perhaps it is too easy? We are in our heads so we think everything is in our heads. When something comes that easily to hand you have to wonder if this is only anthropocentrism?
As to intelligence, I look around. If humans were a single organism, would that organism consider what we are doing to be intelligent?
I dare say not.
As to why the universe is, that question makes a huge assumption. That there is a reason. In middle school I learned in plane geometry( thank you Master Euclid) the first step in a proof is to get your axioms locked down. Never start a line of inquiry with a loose assumption. You will spend a thousand years and only become even more ignorant.
The first day we enter school we discover we do not know everything. Incomplete knowledge is a permanent fact of life, for everyone.
I have not a clue why it is some feel they must hold perfect knowledge in their hand. Simply on the face of it that is an absurd construct.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 26, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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Paul wrote
The plane of human misery and suffering is for god's entertainment? Some god! Best he find a new occupation. Look what he did for India! Walk through its poverty, its misery and disease, its crippling caste system and celebrate the liberation of its deities. Watch the old widows become suttee and the children become prostitutes or starve and you can celebrate the enlightenment of gurus who can only tell you to be like "me."
Have you been to India? I'm there right now. I see and talk with poor and injured people here every day and you'd be surprised to find out that many seem happier than the average well-off person posting on supertopo! I'd be surprised if even the prostitutes of necessity are as negative on life as you are.
Is life really so bad Paul? If so, what are you doing here? You obviously don't believe there would be any consequences to ending it.
It's understandable that you don't understand why things are the way they are. At least folks in jail know how they got there while folks in the insane asylum might be confused why it's nuts in there.
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 26, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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I'm not "negative on life." Human potential is nearly limitless, life is a sublime experience; I celebrate it everyday.
My point is that religion in all its permutations does much to limit us from that potential.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 26, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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I see and talk with poor and injured people here every day and you'd be surprised to find out that many seem happier than the average well-off person posting on supertopo!
Well, how about a little test. If you offered those "prostitutes of necessity" or those "poor and injured people" the option of trading places with the average well-off supertopian, do you really believe they'd say "Hell no! I'm just so happy about having to f*#k strangers for pennies so that I can barely beat starvation, that I'd never trade my life for a professional job in Europe or North America"
Do you really believe that? I've never been to India, so I have no personal experience with the lives of the poor there, but I find it hard to believe that those who live in extreme poverty in India wouldn't trade places with the average Swede or Italian or American.
To assume that because people are making the best of a bad lot means they are somehow really happy that they're poor and/or disease-ridden is a leap of logic that is hard to justify. That they thank whatever deities they believe in for their painful circumstances is hard for me to accept.
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