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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Karl!
Good to here you are enjoying yourself in India.
Will be looking forward to seeing your photo's. Hope you brought your camera.
Stay safe...don't be to trustworthy of everyone(be careful).
Wish I could be on such an adventure.
Sincerely, Trip~
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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healeyje-
So Jan, are you positing that reincarnation is now a legitimate part of christian theology for anyone but jesus or god?
I can't figure out how you came to this conclusion based on my posting?
It is interesting however, if you read the New Testament, that many Jews of the time thought Jesus was the reincarnation of Elijah.
It is also interesting to note that reincarnation was not made a heresy until 551 A.D. and that plenty of Christians and Jews believed in it then and still.
The argument the church made at the time was that people would get lazy with their spiritual life if they thought they had more than one. Of course the church also would have lost a lot of its political power based on fear if people had believed in reincarnation instead of one lifetime and an afterlife mediated by priests.
...and not forget that it is only a stage, and not the whole show
I would claim this belief is a principal one behind the environmental degradation of the planet - do as you will, god put it all here for you to use and it's all of temporary consequence anyway.
This I disagree with. It is the western view that God gave man dominion over the earth and animals to do with them as he likes that causes the problem. The most extreme example of this was James Watts, the Secretary of the Interior under Reagan who actually said that it didn't matter if they drilled for oil in Yellowstone, as Jesus was returning in this generation and we wouldn't need the national parks anymore after that. !!!
If a person believes in reincarnation, they have an interest in preserving the earth that they are coming back to again and again. Indeed, if one looks at reincarnation based societies, they did a very good job of preserving the environment until modern capitalism and it cheapest, most polluting petroleum products were urged on them. Today most cities in Asia are a polluted mess because of misplaced modernism and capitalism not reincarnation.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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But of course deforestation is a huge problem too, brought on by overpopulation... thanks to modern medicine... which seems to have introduced a bunch more "souls" into the bardo-system... somehow....
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Well it actually can be made internally consistent, cintune.
We humans annihilate more species and those extinct species' souls get to come back as humans and annihilate more species.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Oh. Okay then.
Do the trees have souls too?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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It also helps to explain the current low level of consciousness of the human race. Too many souls migrating up from the animals who have no experience at being human!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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Trees are more complicated. There are indications that they have more consciousness than we would have imagined though it is so different from ours that it is hard to comprehend. When they are attacked by beetles for example, they send out chemicals that alert the others in the forest, who then rev up their immune systems and boost their sap to compensate.
This leads to the question of whether the whole tree has consciousness or just some of its cells have chemical consciousness based on that particular sensory stimulation. Others would argue that the entire universe has holographic consciousness.
Meanwhile, when the Dalai Lama was asked if computers and robots reached a certain level of intelligence, if it would be possible for human souls to reincarnate into them and after having a good laugh, he replied, yes why not? He then went on to add that the human body still seemed a better vehicle for now and a long time into the future.
Personally, I believe the question of the nature of consciousness represents the theology or at least the spiritual cosmology of the future - much more interesting than rehashing the old Catholic - Protestant thing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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healeyje- "Do as you will, god put it here for you all to use..."
There you go putting words/philosophy's into the mouth/laps of followers of Christ. Blaming Jesus Christ for the acts of a handful of politcal decisions.
"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. Behold I have given you every plant living seed that is on the surface of the earth, and every tree..." Genesis 1:28-30.
God has ultimate rule over the earth and He exercises His authority with loving care. When God delegated some of the authority to the human race He expected us to take responsibility for the environment, and the other creatures that share our planet. We must not be careless and wasteful as we fulfil this charge. God was careful how He made this earth. We must not be careless about how we take care of it.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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OK OK I take it back you wackjobs need to stop smokin' the pipe! You've got way toooooooo much!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Trip, yer a trip. These double standards will not stand.
Or maybe they will?
So, hey, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the other so-called "atheists" who did bad things...Guess what - they weren't "real" atheists. Real atheists love kittens and children and only do good things, always. You have to let the love of atheism into your heart, it's waiting, but it doesn't need you to get on your knees or be fearful of it.
Open up, Tripster, let Godlessness in.
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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Who says retard anymore? Dude you're so showing your age....
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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Did you guys (and yes all you as#@&%es sticking up for that monotheistic crap on here are guys)....ever hear of these "retards" (who says that anymore really!!!)
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roadman
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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funny ha ha
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 25, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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roadman-
Your poster is attractive but erroneous. The only two outright atheists on that poster are the two most modern - Hemingway and Sagan. All the others were unconventional in their thinking and none of them were standard orthodox Christians or in Einstein's case Jews, but atheists they were not. They all thoroughly disliked religious hypocrisy, and had their doubts about generally accepted aspects of dogma, but all of them were what used to be known as "deists". They believed that there was an intelligence behind the universe though most of them doubted that it cared much about the daily affairs of men.
Ben Franklin wrote that he thought religion had a good influence on the average man and Thomas Jefferson went to the trouble to make his own New Testament with the miracles removed and only the moral teachings of Jesus included. Several of them including Darwin, attended church most of their adult life, and he declared that it was perfectly possible to believe in a deity and evolution.
Type the names of these individuals into google followed by the word religion, and you will have plenty of interesting religious ideas to read about, many of them similar to ideas expressed on this thread.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 25, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Any orthodox christian will tell you that all so called "deists" will end up suffering eternal damnation in hell. Putting deists, who might have an inclination with regard to the intelligent design of the universe, in or under the same tent as orthodox christianity in all its permutations, is problematic at best.
Anyone that thinks Mark Twain was a deist needs to read his "Letters from Earth," a scathing analysis of Christianity in particular. If a god exists Twain sees him as at least incompetent.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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If a god exists Twain sees him as at least incompetent.
To the Person Sitting in Darkness
That's you, Christians.
If everything is a part of God's plan, those who approve of His work end up sounding like Candide: "This is the best of all possible worlds."
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jstan
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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I believe I have a way to allow churches to get more lifelong followers for each dollar spent on sunday schools.
Hold one special meeting each year for five and six year olds. Video tape the class's reaction as they play George Carlin's performance of "Religion is BS."
Reject all those who were visible rolling on the floor.
They just won't make the grade.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
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This is all they do.
They hope against hope that God does not exist.
They also hope that there is no soul. More hope against hope.
The absolute fact is bonafidely established that God and the individual soul exists.
Both God and the independent living entities are existing in the past, now and in the future.
Science has confirmed ..........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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God has ultimate rule over the earth and He exercises His authority with loving care. When God delegated some of the authority to the human race He expected us to take responsibility for the environment, and the other creatures that share our planet. We must not be careless and wasteful as we fulfil this charge. God was careful how He made this earth. We must not be careless about how we take care of it.
God is doing a lousy job and sucks at delegating from the point of view of a Gorilla, Shark, or the last Jaguar in the US.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Werner:
A comment:
"They hope against hope that God does not exist.
They also hope that there is no soul."
I repeat myself here.
During the Lincon Douglas debates Douglas insisted "Lincoln wanted/hoped to destroy slavery."
Lincoln replied," When the Honorable Senator from Illinois tells you my intention, he tells you something he cannot know."
Werner, you tell us something you cannot know.
If you preface these statements with "I believe" you can then be asked to document why it is you think this.
That would be a discussion well worth having.
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