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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Whatever the explanation, it's clear that we still have a lot to learn about brain, mind, and consciousness.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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What a great thread.
If someday I become wheelchair bound I might actually take the time to read it. (I didn't say I'd understand it.)
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MH2
climber
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we still have a lot to learn
And we should take the long view.
Near-death experiences are fascinating. Many climbers are aware of the study made of them by Albert von St. Gallen Heim, published in 1892 and written about by Mike Quigley in Games Climbers Play. People faced with sudden seemingly unavoidable death typically do not panic. They usually consider the situation calmly and rationally and are able to see and assess possibilities more rapidly than usual. This was counter to common thinking back in the 1800s and may still be so, today. Beyond learning for the sake of learning, we value those times when what we learn goes against our expectations.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 10:53am PT
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re: the enigma of self
The illusion is that there is one contiguous self, one main agency ("me") who survives over time, accrues experiences, and reflects, is prestnt now, and dreams ahead.
Psychology has incontrovertably show us that this single master "self" is in fact a panoply of primary selves and sub-personalities, each vying to grab the helm and steer the ship. The Sufis first introduced this idea ages ago, with a cross-hatched grid, each square containg a little "I." Jung and others showed that each of these "I's" has a corresponding opposite of equal power and lest it is made conscious, that energy will always bleed out sideways in our dreams and projections and so forth.
Our primary selves are part genetic, part conditioning. The only aspect that is outside of this genetic/conditioned loop is raw awareness, but for most of us it is so fused to our primary selves, a lot of work is neceasssary to ever get any separation. Till that happens, the "I" wih the biggest head of steam - for many on this thread it is the "Rational Mind" - guides our ship, often on auto pilot. In this sense, we are totally mechanical in our stimulus responses, mistaking our primary selves for "Us."
These guys have done a fine job of making this all clear to the layman.
http://voicedialogueinternational.com/index.htm
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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"Psychology has incontrovertably show us"
?
"The only aspect that is outside of this genetic/conditioned loop is raw awareness"
JL incontrovertably show us?
??
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"The only aspect that is outside of this genetic/conditioned loop is raw awareness"
JL incontrovertably show us?
Tvash nobody can do the climb for you ! as you well know; it is the same in this case. But you can talk about it and read about it but you will never climb it with that method.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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Tvash - you show a rapacious ability to intake data. The questions you ask cannot be answered in a sound bite. I can understand that you doubt that anything but measuring can render incontrovertible results. That's scientism. But lots of very smart and serious people have been looking at the psyche for eons and have arrived at incontrovertible facts and laws. If you want to realy know about primary selves and sub personalities, just look at that link. It is a solid layman's primer on how this all works, drawn form empirical data over many years and in many countries. Behavior and beliefs differ country to culture to race to creed. But the basic human being is comprised of the self same components, first (in the west) articulated by Sigmond F. and refined over the ensuing years.
There's no guess work, beliefs, or specuation in any of this. It's all empirical stuff cross checked by countless people over the last 50 years. The psychological laws and typologies make most human behavior almost totally predictable. Before we do any of the work, we are largely if not entirly on autpo pilot.
Read the stuff yourself. It's the only way to bring yourself up to speed. As as PSP just said, nobody can climb the route for you this time - meaning talk and speculation will get you nowhere. If it was a thinking exercise, that would work. But it ain't so it don't. Problem is, nobody but people with experience actually believe this. Hence all he yammering sans experience.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Welcome to the Tvashcentric universe, I guess.
Why don't you guys stop preaching and just resume meditating?
If I went on a meditation retreat, would you be stunned into silence?
Tell you what - you foot the bill, and I'll go.
Now go forth and enjoy yourselves.
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MH2
climber
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Before we do any of the work, we are largely if not entirly on autpo pilot.
Says the guy who has said the same 1,000 times before.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
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Tell you what - you foot the bill, and I'll go
---
Fair enough. Tell me where you are and I'll set it up. I know a lot of solid folk in that world. As you will shortly find out, this has nothing to do with preaching. Anymore that reporting the findings at CERNE is preaching. Psp, Mike and I are basically just relating our thoughts as they arose from an experiential practice, trying to contribute to the converstation on mind.
Once you have some of that experience as well, it will be interesting to hear what you have to say.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I'm in Seattle.
I'm always up for an adventure.
November sucks here for outdoor stuff anyway.
And I will report back in detail.
It'll provide some fresh ST material, for sure.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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For the rest of us armchair adventurers this will be exciting as the reports come rolling in!
;>)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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Okay, Tvash. I'm on it. There are several Soto zen centers up in Seattle but I want to see about the Renzai temple. This traditin has a little martial arts energy introjected into the mix and a robust apporoach is probably more suitable and effective for a climber. It's hightly ritualized but that's just to get a real solid structure underneath you as you slowly drop. You will be glad for what at first what seems odd (at least it did to me).
The trick is you have to get into a sesshin or retreat long enough for your mind to settle, and that usually takes at least four days. Then it's like you're on a bivy ledge 10,000 miles in the air.
Oh this is gonna be good.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Now...before we go any further - who's gonna foot the bill (per my original comment) for this?
Just double checking.
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MH2
climber
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Good choice, Tvash. Maybe we can set up a help account. I'd contribute.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Don't worry it's cheap Kwam UM school is typically $50/day includes three meals and sleeping on the floor.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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OK. That is cheap.
I will take it seriously, of course.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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One little concern: What if Tvash reports back, babbling frenetically about the epiphany he experienced. Are we to believe him, or simply put him in the same box as Largo, deluded but exuberant, a pilgrim converted to the realm of emptiness?
This could be a problem.
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