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trudat
Big Wall climber
far far away
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Thanks Dr F
you made my day
now stop your nagging and nagging and nagging over the most idiotic of causes
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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"The truth is found in the dirt, you can not fake fossils, they tell a great story, and I will follow it"
Dirt nap?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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A question for Mh2-
Have there been studies (there must have been) on people whose senses are keener than normal and how this might relate to altered perception and mystical experiences?
For example I have a much keener sense of smell than others and can hear both higher and lower frequencies than average, neither of which are particularly great to have in everyday life (high pitched whining transformers that drive me crazy that no one else can hear for example).
I am also extremely sensitive to air pressure changes and can predict a weather change before the barometer even falls. I seem to be able to sense earthquakes at times thousands of miles away, particularly if I've been meditating a lot. I feel it then read about it the next day, facilitated of course by sleeping on the floor on a small island surrounded by thousands of miles of water.
I think a lot of supposed ESP and shamanistic abilities in the past must have come from these genetic anomalies (my father had them also). Alternatively, one could say that some people are born with better karma for experiencing these things than others.
Surely there is a publication somewhere which lists the range extremes for sensory perception?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Meanwhile to the aggressive atheists around here. You might want to ponder the case of the Jews. They endured the most awful persecutions for millenia and kept the faith. It is only here in modern America where they aren't persecuted, that they are voluntarily assimilating and giving it up. Perhaps there is a moral here?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Christ taught that you should give your goods to the poor, that you should not fight, that you should not go to church, and that you should not punish adultery. Neither Catholics nor Protestants have shown any strong desire to follow His teaching in any of these respects. Some of the Franciscans, it is true, attempted to teach the doctrine of apostolic poverty, but the Pope condemned them, and their doctrine was declared heretical. Or, again, consider such a text as "Judge not, that ye be not judged," and ask yourself what influence such a text has had upon the Inquisition and the Ku Klux Klan. Bertrand Russell
John, you can do better then this. This is a very simplistic and literal view of what Jesus taught. Expand your mind John. The story about the rich man was given to show how material wealth can keep one from truly knowing God, because to know God you have to realize that God is your source. Material wealth can keep one from realizing this as one can learn to depend on the wealth instead of God. So the story isn't a blanket statement to give away all of ones wealth, it is a teaching about the dangers of wealth. The story illustrates this by showing that the wealthy man, who said he recognized Jesus as the Christ and thus the way to salvation, could not bring himself to give up his wealth. Thus proving that he valued material security over spiritual security.
It is just too bad that many modern Christians accept this story to mean that they have to be poor to know God. Many modern Christians are literalist and the bible is full of symbols and metaphors. It just isn't true that you have to give everything away. And thus you have blind men like Betrand Russel, who sounds wise, but is ignorant of the depth of spirituality and thus can not lead you to the Truth. Find a better teacher John. The one you have is blind to the Truth. The bible says that he and his followers will end up in a ditch.
This is no different then the trouble that modern americans have in understanding the middle eastern mind. Americans are direct and literal and middle easterners are indirect and use metaphors. Their speech is laced with symbols and to understand them and their stories, one must understand this.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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The truth is that all mythical forms from Christianity to Oak Tree Worship are metaphors.
The mistake in Christianity or any religion is to read metaphorical forms as accurate historical fact.
These metaphors reconcile us to the remarkable mystery of existence, but ultimately they are only delusions... helpful delusions, perhaps, but still delusions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Science cannot account for everything!
There are any number of things that can't be proven scientifically, but are rational to except.
Logical and mathematical truths can not be proven by science! Science presupposes science and math. So to try and prove them by science would be arguing in a circle!
Metaphysical truths, such as there are other minds than my own, or that the external world is real, or that the past was not created five minutes ago with the appearance of age, are rational beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven.
Ethical beliefs, about the statement of value are not accessible by the scientific method. You can't show by science, that the Nazi scientist in the camps did anything evil as opposed to the scientist in western democracy's.
Ascetic judgements cannot be accessed by scientific methods, because the beautiful like the good cannot be scientifically proven.
Science cannot be justified by the scientific method. Science is permeated with unprovable assumptions. For example in the special theory of relativity, the whole theory hinges on the assumption that the speed of light is constant between any two points A and B. But that strictly can knott be proven, we have to assume that in order to hold to the theory!!
EDIT: The question Dr.F was, can science account for everything? The answer is NO!! ^^^^see above for a few examples^^^^^!!!!
~777~
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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”The truth is found in the dirt, you can not fake fossils, they tell a great story, and I will follow it”
“they cannot be faked, or misunderstood, billions of years of step by step change”
The Piltdown man “fossil” was indeed faked and was considered legitimate for forty years.
The Piltdown fraud had significant impact on early research on human evolution. Scientists were led down a dead end in the belief that the human brain expanded in size before the jaw adapted to new types of food. Discoveries of Australopithecine fossils found in the 1920s in South Africa were IGNORED because of Piltdown man, and the reconstruction of human evolution was thrown off track for many years. The assumed validity of Piltdown man led to a vast expenditure of time and effort on this “fossil”. Many scientific papers were written on Piltdown.
Clarence Darrow even used the Piltdown “fossil” as evidence the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial.
Piltdown was the most famous forgery and is evidence fossils can be faked . And legitimate fossils found in South Africa were greatly misunderstood as a result.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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trudat- "Thanks Dr F, you made my day..."
Doesn't take much to please you!!
Fossils? Proove that there is no God?
Your putting alott of FAITH in dating systems that have failed in the past.
EDIT: Like I said up thread "Blind leading the blind!"(Spritualy blind)!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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7^3 wrote: For example in the special theory of relativity, the whole theory hinges on the assumption that the speed of light is constant between any two points A and B. But that strictly can knott be proven, we have to assume that in order to hold to the theory!!
which is a misrepresentation of what science is about. One can make the hypothesis that the speed of light is constant, and test the results of that hypothesis experimentally. So far, all tests have results consistent with that hypothesis, and the Special Theory of Relativity.
There is a deeper meaning of this, which is the Lorentz invariance of the universe, which makes Special Relativity a part of the fabric of the universe, a fundamental symmetry. What gives rise to these symmetries is the subject of active research.
It may be that someday we'll observe/experiment and find observations that disagree with the statement that the speed of light is constant, and the same in all inertial reference frames, but it will not "disprove" Special Relativity, which will remain correct in the physical regime it describes.
As I have said many times, if you are looking for "The Truth" you won't find it in science, science shifts and changes as we see deeper and farther...
...it gets better and more nuanced, and explains more and more.
Who knows, maybe someday it will even explain mathematics.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Dr F. One thing many climbers say they enjoy the most is the thrill of discovery. If God gave us every answer, then we would lose that. We would all be prebolted grid climbers. The answers are there, you have to know how to find them.
You never did answer my question.
What if your instruments are not capable of finding God? Then what? How would you know? We didn't prove the atom for a very long time. What if we simply don't have the instruments capable of seeing God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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Regardless, I hold science in high esteem. Half of us probably wouldn't be here without all the medical breakthroughs etc. Like I've said, if I had it to do over I would probably majored in astronomy or astrophysics or geology etc. It has always intrigued me. It would be realy cool to be a CSI dude!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Ed, Thanks!!
I am just a noob when it comes to science.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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You might want to ponder the case of the Jews
I'd rather ponder the case of the Lake Malawi flies, or are their lives simply without meaning?
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MH2
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Who knows, maybe someday it will even explain mathematics.
Good one!
Jan,
I don't know that much about sensory physiology and was far too brief and outright wrong in what I said about hearing. Our ear is actually several orders of magnitude less sensitive than what it would take to hear thermal motion of air molecules. However, it also depends a lot on what frequencies we look at and how long we let the ear collect the energy. Even a weak push with the right period can under favorable circumstances get a large object moving. A pendulum, say, or an eardrum compared to a gas molecule.
My source is An Introduction to Hearing by David M. Green, 1976. He points out that the sensitivity of the ear to sinusoids around 3,000 Hz, where our ear is most sensitive, cannot be compared directly to thermal noise because the noise and signal quantities have different dimensions. Making a few assumptions, he arrives at an estimate of about three orders of magnitude between what we can detect as a pure tone and the energy in thermal movements of air molecules. However, children hear better, and David Green points out that cats are known to have about 10 to 20 dB better sensitivity than man over most of the audible range, and that other animals may have even better hearing.
Barometric pressure changes can be considered sound of very low frequency (and long wave-length). It has been speculated that birds, for example, might be able to detect such changes, which might aid navigation. One source said that you should be able to hear surf crashing at great distances if you were up in the air and able to hear low low frequencies.
Certainly some people will be more sensitive than others, perhaps practice helps, but I don't know much about that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Jan- "Perhaps there is a moral here?"
I believe so. Excellent point!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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Barometric pressure changes can be considered sound of very low frequency (and long wave-length)
Interesting as it seems the common denominator here is wave lengths and their relation to sound. It makes sense that a small island would enable a sensitive to experience these in a way that would never happen if living in the center of a continent. Okinawa in particular has the property of being just on the edge of the Asian monsoonal system where air pressure fluctuates frequently and dramatically. We're also in what is known as typhoon alley and on the ring of fire. I recently read that the greatest discharges of electro-magnetic energy occur during lightning, earthquakes and typhoons.
It also indicates that the source for sensing disparate things like air pressure and sound could be one particular place in the brain. The increased electromagnetic energy is another story.
There are several interesting physical phenomena which Japanese scientists have investigated relating to legends in Japanese culture about predicting earthquakes. One is called being warned by Buddha's light as people report that the candle flames on their altars turn blue and dip toward the floor shortly before a large quake. Japanese scientists have been able to verify in special chambers, that under the electro-magnetic conditions of an earthquake, a candle flame will indeed turn blue and bend downward. It is also known in China that animals act in a certain way before earthquakes and they have been able to predict quite a few ahead of time based on strange animal behavior which would make sense if their senses are much more acute than ours.
If nothing else, shamans and yogis were keen observers of nature, and perhaps they were genetically predisposed to do so.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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"What if your instruments are not capable of finding God? Then what? How would you know? We didn't prove the atom for a very long time. What if we simply don't have the instruments capable of seeing God?"
John, I replied to this question a few days ago. The burden of showing god exists is borne by those who believe such exists. Of course you can just skip this verification if you don't mind believing in something that does not in fact exist. You have the freedom to do this, provided we all can keep church and state separate. Mixing church and state threatens us all. Only those who plan to put everyone else under their heel are not threatened.
Those who are interested in understanding the material world are really unconcerned about gods who have never changed anything in the material world. If and when there is data suggesting a god has had an effect in the material world, science will be all over the question in short order. You may count on it.
Questions on this thread are showing over and over that we are listening only to the answers we wish to hear.
Here is the answer I want to hear. I want to hear that believers are standing up in church or in talking with their peers asking if what we are actually DOING follows the teachings of christ. Not the bible. Are we supporting people who treat others in ways they would not wish themselves to be treated? That rule was there even at the start of the Aramaic period.
I think Jennie gave such an answer a few days ago. Wonderful!
As to Bertrand Russell, read what I wrote. I said, "To the extent this is true".
IF churches do not follow the teachings of christ, and we define a christian as one who follows christ, then most church goers are not christian. If Russell is wrong then the conclusion is wrong.
Edit:
OK Werner, Let's see your data.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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"The burden of showing god exists is borne by those who believe such exists."
False!!!
Lazy aas people who don't want to do any work deserve bewilderment and blind alleys.
So, .... get to work and find God. Not very hard to do ......
God is NOT a prostitute.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 19, 2010 - 02:40am PT
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No one can find god, because god is only a metaphor for resolving the mystery of being. Doubtless Ardi's understanding of existence differed little from the average christian in contemporary life.
You want to find answers then turn to science; all the rest is smug bullsh#t designed to make you feel cozy in the midst of bewilderment.
All religious symbols describe the human psyche and fulfill its needs, they prepare you for the inevitable end in which every religious metaphor's truth or falseness becomes absolutely irrelevant.
Unfortunately, making metaphorical symbols into historical truth has inhibited human progress in every corner of the world.
You should ask yourself why religious symbols throughout the world are so similar? It's because they are products of a human mind, psyche, psychology that stands alone before the mystery of existence terrified, whimpering and needy.
Get over it and strive to make the world a better place!
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