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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Gobee,
You used to be such a nice boy, back when Russ, Roy and I had you cleaning the Low Voltage Zero Gravity Taint Abrader orbs after ever trip back from the Mussy Nebula! What the hell happened to you? You are just begging for a full-court Photoshopping, you know?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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"So does that mean (in your opinion) that the old testament part of the bible is no longer authoritative, while the new testament part is still to be accepted without question?"
Yes! In the OT, there were sacrifices every year of killing bulls and goats, for the forgiving of sins. Since Jesus was God, his death on the cross, only needed to happen once to forgive all sin, to please the Father, and by faith God excepts Jesus sacrifice for are punishment. Jesus took are place!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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Gobee, that's all very nice, but it really doesn't address my question about the authority of the bible. Presumably (correct me if I'm wrong) your view that god finds homosexuality, adultery, and fornication to be abominations comes from the bible. But how can you say the bible should govern our lives in those areas, but not others. If the bible says it is not okay to engage in homosexual activities, but it is okay to sell my daughters into slavery, how can you assert the bible's authority in the first instance, but say it is wrong (or out of date, or whatever) in the second.
What I'm getting at here is that it seems that most Christians (and believers in other religions) take a completely indefensible approach to their holy books. Quoting the bible as absolute authority where it suits their personal feelings, but dismissing it as not relevant where it doesn't match their personal feelings.
I'm not trying to be mean-spirited here, but I truly am baffled by how you, or anyone, can say "The bible is the word of god, it must be obeyed", but then qualify that statement with something along the lines of "except where it doesn't have to be obeyed."
Help me out here.
Edit: your second post came through while I was still writing this. So I guess what you're saying is that we can throw out the old testament but must treat the new testament as absolutely authoritative. Since I know that there are more than a few Jews in the world who would disagree with you, how do I decide who to believe? You, because you say you know the real score? Them, because they say they know the real score?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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So Gobee, Jesus HAD to die on the cross to PLEASE his "father"?
His father could not be "pleased" in some other, non violent, manner?
What the hell kind of father gets pleasure from his son's suffering?
No way good old god could have figured things out better than that?
And why did it take god six days to create the earth?
Surely he could have just snapped his finger in an instant?
And why was god SO tired that had to "rest" on the seventh day?
Doesn't all this sound like a MAN made this all up?
You still believe in the tooth fairy and santa?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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In my opinion, Ghost, jesus fulfilled all the rules/laws of the o.t. But he did not say to 86 the o.t. There are many encouraging, wonderful words that keep me going....many are found in the Psalms and Proverbs.
The book of Ruth is about two widows and how God took care of them. This has been a great comfort to lynne in the past two years losing my best friend and provider along with being thrown into the chaos of these economic times.
Ghost, you say, "accepted without question." I don't believe blindly. God/jesus and I have slugged it out over the years in what he says vs. what has happened in my life. Like everyone, life has been extremely difficult at times over the course of a lifetime.
Jesus not only does not mind my questions, of which there have been MANY especially over the past two years, but he encourages me to bring them honestly to him. "Hey," he says to lynnie, "I know your heart anyway, might as well be honest and dialogue with me."
That's what I love so much about my friend jesus. Psalm 145:18 says, " The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth."
And in the n.t. James says in 4:8 "Come near to God and He will come near to you."
So if you want to know jesus just say "howdy, I truthfully want to know you" and then come near to him like you do your human friends and stay near.
That's it on a beautiful Sunday in So Cal. I am now going into the grate outdoors for a bit. lynnie :DD
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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Gobee, Dude, yo getting carried away :DDDD that was my question to answer from Ghost......kidding, kinda. Breathe Gobee, breathe.
Edit: you list adultry, fornication and homosexuality....what about gossip, lying and slandering....in the n.t. these are listed as just as bad...why do not all, but quite a few trip on the sex stuff ? Because they don't physically do it so they can go, "oh, well, I'm cool with that. I pass the test."
I think it's because people lie and gossip many times each day and they just don't want to see it as just as bad. imho
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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I would rather be found wrong then not to trust in God!
From 10/2/09;
Yes I believe God made us and the worlds as He said He did in Genesis. But I know He could have made it in an instant, just like in I Dream of Jeannie, blink, blink, POOF! However He took His time because He enjoyed Himself and to show us that we should to and also rest from are labor and give thanks to Him!
God made everything to fit His purpose, it's not an accident. Look at the heavens you can set a clock to them! All this is just the work of His fingers, and the earth is His footstool.
Bump to Lynne;
two things.....to love God and to love your neighbor.....who is your neighbor....everyone.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Watching the believers here preach at the non-believers is a bit like watching someone trying to teach a pig to waltz. It wastes their time, annoys the pig, and gets them muddy. And is almost inevitably tiresome.
Preaching (all types) is quite inappropriate to this venue.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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Unfortunately this is not correct:
Since Jesus was God, his death on the cross, only needed to happen once to forgive all sin, to please the Father
Jesus is not God, never was nor ever will. He was son like all the rest of the living entities which are part parcel of the lord.
God can't please the father since he's already the Supreme father. God is not subordinate to anayone, he always maintains his absolute Supremacy.
Technically speaking Jesus Christ was a satyavesa avatar, nita siddha, eternally liberated soul, not ordinary, who descended from the spiritual stratum to re-establish the bonafide religious principles.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
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"So Gobee, Jesus HAD to die on the cross to PLEASE his "father"?
His father could not be "pleased" in some other, non violent, manner?
What the hell kind of father gets pleasure from his son's suffering?
No way good old god could have figured things out better than that?"
God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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Mighty Hiker -- "Preaching (all types) is quite inappropriate to this venue."
Then why are YOU preaching.
Trying to censor user input about what you dislike always seemed to be your spiel.
Besides -- Ghost presented excellent critical thinking in his questions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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The Word Became Flesh
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Edit;
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
It's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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This is hard for me to say, but I gotta admit that I'm with Werner here. Preaching is not inappropriate in this thread. Quite the contrary. This is a thread devoted to religious belief, so why shouldn't someone take the opportunity to preach his or her beliefs?
Mostly I'd rather not be preached at, but if I choose to enter a thread about religion and ask questions of believers, I can hardly complain when they answer. And it's also worth pointing out that most of the unpleasant, forceful preaching here has not come from the religious folks, but from the non-believers.
So if Gobee or Lynn or someone else starts getting nasty, then sure, I'll chime in and tell them to keep it civil or shut up. But until then, I'm happy to have the opportunity to hear what they have to say.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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gosh ghost, just got back from the great outdoors. The earth still retains and remains beauty and beautiful. Ideas here continue to be exchanged and that also is beautiful. I want you to know I listen and ponder as well as post.
Breathing, flowing, thinking,.... living in the moment and the day along with enjoying the life given you and the people around you contains the simple peace I think we were made for. Jess a thought on a lovely evening.
(and now back to the IRS .... must complete tonight .....deadline 10/15. So where do life's pressures come from ? not god, if he indeed exists. And you know how I feel about that. :D lynnie)
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MH2
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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This thread fascinates me in large part because religion and how the brain works are two subjects that any sane person would leave alone.
There are questions in both with no definitive answer and not from lack of trying.
You should feel at least a little humility when brains as sharp as Sir Francis Crick and Roger Penrose have turned their attention to how the mind works.
http://www.consciousentities.com/penrose.htm
It is reasonable to ask what form a thought has just before you become aware of it, but quantum fluctuations coming up into the macro world by way of microtubules is pretty speculative.
By the way, it was reported somewhere that Terry Pratchett, who suffers from Alzheimer's, had "found God." This would be newsworthy for someone who has parodied religion the way he has. According to the man himself, "It is highly unlikely that I have found God since I can't even find my car keys, despite considerable empirical evidence that they exist."
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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"It seems to me Jennie is saying here desperate people are more likely to commit crimes"
"but (she thinks) they don't follow the golden rule and so are not really religious."
"Through this evaluation of her's you can logically prove the conclusion that any "religious" person who commits a crime is not really religious."
"What am I missing"?
"An even larger number of people, all non-criminals in both categories, probably fall into the category of those not following the golden rule, assuming one could come up with a method of determining the fact."
What I was suggesting, Jstan, is placing desperate individuals who profess religion, but commit crimes adverse to that religion’s teachings, in the same category as those who attempt sincere application of religious ethics, will not accord congruent data or circumstance to make a relevant judgement. Religion is much more than professing a belief in God or announcing to the world that you’ve “been saved.” Ethical purpose should go with assertion of belief.
I wouldn’t place a decent person such as Lynne in the same category as a headline making serial killer who claims to be hearing voices from heaven. Why characterize ALL religious people together with those who broadcast their rapport with God yet conduct themselves unjustly toward their fellow humans?
Similarly, why collate the deeds of criminal atheists with the greater part of the atheist population who live by community law and deal with others fairly?
It seems many, on both sides of this issue, want to typify divergent belief systems as evil and define them by the actions of hateful and destructive individuals whom, in spirit and deed, they have little in common.
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
New England
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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My 2c:
Both sides of this argument are equally meaningless.
No matter what you think you know...you really don't know for sure.
So...what are you arguing for?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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So...what are you arguing for?
I agree, arguing is stupid. I also agree that I'm stupid.
But it still doesn't mean no one knows.
Since you don't know, that's why you think no one else knows.
rolls eyes
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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WanderlustMD, for an educated person I'm kinda surprised you call this arguing. I suppose some is, but mostly it's an exchange of ideas. I know I have learned much since I have participated on this forum the past 20+ months and it has had a significant impact on my life philosophies. There are many gifted people here and they provide information in their areas of expertise. One listens, learns and lives. :D Peace, lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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I like your questions Jim Brennan. I know we are all unique and created with different skills and personalities. For me I would rather learn to be a good Samaritan and turn the other cheek and learn about grace and forgiveness than do my pretty complex IRS paperwork.
For others,,,,,they would have breezed through this months ago......loser here. Love people but find it really hard to focus on numbers and forms and yadayada. Not my calling.
But at 10:30pm I think I will have it wrapped up in @ 2 more hours. Focus gal, focus. Smiles......
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