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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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I saw a lot of talk earlier about civilian deaths in Gaza.
Well, there would be a lot fewer if Hamas didn't intentionally embed their military operation within civilian residential areas, schools, and markets.
When senior Hamas goon Nizar Rayyan lost his life to a rocket targeted on his house two days ago, we learned that not only had he defied typical Hamas tactics of retreating to safe bunkers during the siege, but also elected to surround himself in his home with his four wives, nine children, and numerous other followers. His human shield mentality is shared by many in the terrorist organization, as the leadership, including Rayyan called on supporters (innocent civilians) to stand upon the rooftops of buildings that would likely be military targets in Israel's operation.
When Hamas proclaimed their refusal to continue their ceasefire with Israel, they left no alternative to the course of action that resulted. And when the tragic and avoidable civilian casualties occur, the blood is entirely on Hamas's hands. These bloodthirsty idiots are killing Palestine and its cause.
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Sak
Mountain climber
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Americans celebrate July 4 as our Independence day. We fought for our freedom and our self determination. We glorify our success and consider the struggle as heroic. I consider the Palestinians as heroes also. They fight to overthrow a military occupation. Why can't the Palestinians fight for their freedom?? At this point it's Hatfield vs.Mccoys. I blame neither side for seeking revenge. It's human nature. Someone needs to step in, draw up some borders, and create a Nation of Palestine. At this point we can hold the Palestinians (and Israelis) accountable. Peace can only come when this happens. Preconditions are imposed by politicians more interested in campaign contributions than in actually achieving peace.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"The House of Abraham... perhaps the bloodiest line of humans - ever.
They are not fit to be among people, generally speaking."
Sweet!
Dingus says we need to kill Christians, Muslims and Jews!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869407,00.html?imw=Y
Although the assault on one of the movement's most senior figures has been interpreted by Hamas as an intentional body blow — and may yet prompt a furious retaliation — Israeli officials did not characterize it as a "targeted killing." Indeed, Israeli military-intelligence sources tell TIME that Rayan was killed when he remained in his home after Israel had phoned and ordered those inside to evacuate — before striking to destroy command facilities in the house. Israel says it has used this "knock on the roof" practice of phoning warnings about strikes on the homes of Hamas leaders throughout the current campaign. Israeli officials say the campaign thus far has not significantly targeted or damaged Hamas' leadership and chain of command.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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(Overjoyed to see Dirtineye post. I was getting ready to make e mail inquirey.)
It's important to note Muslims also consider themselves "chosen," people, sons of Abraham. To be more specific, Muslims consider Ishmael the proper chosen lineage, on the premise that Jews and Christian have distorted the Scriptures.
Augustinian Christian theology emphasizes the Pauline doctrine of "adoption," by faith, into the "chosen race."
The pollutions of human nature, individually, and corporate, being the most obvious common denominator of adherants to all three identities these days. Put theologically, a weak view of the doctrine of Sin. In this case the possession of "holy-land" has taken precedent over the quest for personal holiness.
Upthread Werner mentioned the priority of individual awareness and responsibility as a starting point. I couldn't agree more.
I hope I'm not out of line to encourage all of us to respect the experience of Philo and to resist the unnecessary personal judgements.
We are all unstabe. We are humans.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"read mark steyn for a little moral clarity"
Mark Steyn has the moral clarity of Charles Manson.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Interestingly both Muslims and Christians expect Jesus will be the man arriving at the end times, which many fundamentalists believe are heralded by the re-establishment of Israel.
The Israelis, ironically, don't expect Jesus at the end but many are happy to enlist the funding and support of Christian fundamentalist groups that expect all these Jewish folks will be eradicated at the end, with most burning in hell forever (so much for the Muslims being the only ones expecting Israel to disappear)
Now if Jesus were to return, he'd probably better be well armed and prepared to take charge by force, since he wasn't saying things strictly by the book the first time he was here, and would certainly be expected to quote the ancient party line upon returning (and, of course, Christians and Muslims expect different things from Jesus return)
Just food for thought. All these folks counting on their guy to be on their side in wiping out the other guys, who happened to Mr Love-Thy-Enemy.
Personally, I think this world is just plain doomed unless we can take a huge step away from violence and conflict before the bio-dna-weapons become so easy to make that any half-cocked, angry scientist could engineer armageddon in a test tube
peace
Karl
PS Fatty wrote
"DMT, Thanks for finally agreeing to my C of C premise, got Karl yesterday"
I'd hate to see what is considered "consent" on one of Fatty's dates!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"I'd hate to see what is considered "consent" on one of Fatty's dates!"
Ask Dick Cheney.....
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Charming, Unc, but I don't really like the word picture!
I too got a laugh out of the Orange County "morality."
Karl is showing some restraint: Try Rev:19:11ff
Perhaps the thought of Daddy comin home to give everyone a whuppin' is what is needed. Yes, "love thy enemies," but tragically, "broad" is the path to destruction.
J Hendrix and Zimmerman said it well, "all along the watchtower."
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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The ground invasion has begun...
edit: hey... what's with the whole new thread???
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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It is a cultural war, and it will progressively get worse until we have to face it whether we like it or not. It's going to spread and get much bloodier throughout the world as well as in the US.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"It is a cultural war, and it will progressively get worse until we have to face it whether we like it or not"
Culture is just the excuse to kill other humans. It a turf war in this case.
And it's happening now because it's their last chance to kick ass with impunity before Obama comes into office and hopefully requests Israel honor their commitments to stop illegal settlements and squeezing off Palestinian lifelines of food, electricity and medicine. Could be too late by then.
This could even be a last minute attempt to provoke Iran or some Arab countries to attack and start a war while they still can.
Its ugly and far from the simple "Israel just wants peace within its simple borders and it will play nice" myth that we are fed in the US alone.
Peace
Karl
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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How long before Iran steps in to back up their cronies? My guess is anytime after January 20th…
Is WWIII just around the corner?
C’mon… I wanna see some motherf*#kers get vaporized!!!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Those photos are just awful.
This is so wrong. No matter who one believes is "right" in this battle, this is just barbarism.
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WBraun
climber
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So
Anybody gonna do anything besides just talk?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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The person who posted those photos did more than "just talk."
What did I do? As usual, I made a point of making eye contact/smiling/assisting those around me as I went about my day today. At the post office, on the subway, as I walked the sidewalks.
"Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me."
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