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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 14, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
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You're being intentionally obtuse.
C’mon, DMT, man up and admit it. Or at least use some terminology a New Keynesian can appreciate, if not understand.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Oct 14, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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LOL, Xcon, the people who work for me work their but off and make good money, most with a high school degree only. Without what they produce you wouldn't have that fancy TV, computer, or cell phone.
And the ones that made questionable choices know it and admit it.
You think you know blue collar, but you don't.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
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DMT, you keep asking an intentionally obfuscated question, and you know it.
I've asked you what "for a loss" means, and you refuse to answer. That phrase doesn't explicate on the labor side of the relationship.
I'll say again, if all you can offer the labor market is picking your nose, your "labor" is (as far as we all know thus far) WORTHLESS. So, you are not going to make money doing that "job." Your LIFE is a "loss," if that's all you can "contribute."
Regarding my employees specifically, I've answered very clearly, but, because you cannot (or will not) define what "at a loss" means in that context, you yourself cannot realize when the clearest possible answer to an obfuscated question has indeed been given.
You clearly believe (in the face of the evidence) that people are somehow entitled to some "minimum." But they are not. And people that cannot or will not upgrade their skills are in for increasingly hard times. NO market in human history has successfully guaranteed a minimum.
Even throughout the era of "minimum wages" in the USA, MILLIONS have voluntarily worked for less, because less is better than nothing.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Oct 14, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
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Irony that liberals' love for govt-mandated wages takes more and more power away from the unions they also claim to support. Shouldn't be a surprise since any successful worker's revolution immediately sets about banning unions. Consciously or subconsciously it's always about control.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:17am PT
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Economics is called the "dismal science" for a reason. It doesn't care about feelings. I guess, in a way, that's why I like it. I'm a pure punter in the field and I don't even play an economist on TV, but I find it fascinating. Here's a question for the gang chipping in to this discussion:
How many of you think we should pay a "living wage" to every employee of every company?
Now, definition is absolutely critical here. So, we're talking just ONE person, not the idea of supporting a family of four. It seems up-thread living wage (LW) should include, of course food and clothing, but also housing and transportation. For the sake of argument, let's assume thrift store clothing and cheap food. Housing and transport start to make things interesting. Let's assume renting is okay. When we're talking places like San Francisco, Seattle, and Santa Barbara, rents become extremely steep. In Santa B, the average rent for a 374 sq. ft. studio is, dig this: $1,371. If you actually live in SB, transport could be easy on a bike/bus, so that's not huge. If we go with the basic "formula" of having one's housing costs be 1/3 of your income, this worker would need to be pulling down close to $50k/year! That means about $25/hour for EVERY STINKING JOB. So, I push a broom? $25/hour. I clean dishes at a restaurant? $25/hour. What follows from this, of course, is a brutal increase in prices for everything, including the pay rate for every other job that requires skill/training/etc. Those rents? They shoot up. That burger? Yikes. This shiz is like physics. Action/reaction. So many small businesses especially operate on a narrow margin. Imposing a LW on many of them would simply put them out of business, making sure those low-skilled works have no work at all.
It's this process that makes me very leery of too much gov't intervention of the market. To be fair, I've got no solution for those caught at the margins other than improve your skills and move to where the work is. Big businesses could do more to pay their workers better--for sure, and we know there is a lot of gov't subsidizing going on for workers AND businesses. As currently executed, this process in unsustainable. Never forget the national debt is north of 20 TRILLION DOLLARS and growing. All of our politicians should be taken out into the public square and flogged until the debt is under control. They should wake up every morning with that problem burning in their weaselly little brains.
So, living wage, anyone?
BAd
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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My daughters BF works at Verizon... makes 15 an hr. solving customer phone issues...selling iphones , plans etc....he's good at what he does...You can't tell me corporate giant Verizon can't afford to pay someone making them money hand over fist a higher wage...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 15, 2018 - 11:38am PT
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Me? When I hire people to do a job I don't underpay them.
And how do you determine what "underpay" would be?
Do you pay them $100 per hour? $800 per hour? Heck, why not $10,000 per hour? Anything less must mean that they worked "for a loss."
After all, our time is our most precious commodity. We're perpetually losing it, as our finite clocks are all ticking down at the SAME RATE. So, in that sense, our time is worth exactly the same. So, if one person's time is worth $10,000 per hour, then so is the time spent by everybody else.
So, how do you decide what is "underpay"?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 15, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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You are all missing the point. Wage slavery is still slavery.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 15, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
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Wage slavery is still slavery.
The answer to slavery is to quit working for wages and start your own business. Of course, then you're still a slave to market demands. So, the only real answer to slavery is to not do anything.
That means death.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Oct 15, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
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@Gary: Yeah, did a little Christmas temp warehouse work. It was for an outdoor company doing shows to sell skies and other winter sports gear. We'd stack, load, unload. Sucky job. The good news is, it won't be long before almost all of this kind of work is fully automated. No souls to crush when robots don't have souls. And what will the workers eat when they no longer have jobs? Cake!
BAd
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Oct 15, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
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The market determines the price of goods and services. The market should determine the price of labor. Government's role should be limited to finding and punishing those who collude to manipulate the price of either.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Oct 15, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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"what percent of workers who 'work their asses off' also 'make great money' would you say? "
Define great money.
i love circular debate...
By my definition all of them do... When Amazon talks about raises minimum wage to $15 per hour I laugh because no one makes anywhere close to pay that low. Even the lowest skilled "ditch digger" as we used to call them.
How many places can you make 6 figured with a HS diploma, or less?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 15, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
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...depending on the work.
Whaaaaattttt?????
You mean to say that you allow the MARKET to define appropriate pay?????
Noooo, I am shocked!
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Oct 15, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
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^^^ How to make a liberal disappear in a poof of logic...
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
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DMT, I like your posts generally. But here you seem utterly lost. Dated, but still relevant. Find a copy.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:29pm PT
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Well, sort of DMT. When the force of law--which is really fines, prison, whatever if you don't comply--comes into play, that's a whole different game than individual companies making decisions, yes?
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
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But if the government uses the market to determine a fair wage, well that socialism!
Except that the government ISN'T using the market to set a minimum wage! The government is employing all sorts of arbitrary and undefinable notions, like "living wage" and "decent wage" to SET what the "minimum wage" SHOULD be.
And people like you fall in line to make unsustainable MORAL arguments that, as we have seen, entirely bypass the market. Then, when pressed on what your moral arguments MEAN, we have yet to see actual answers.
And the fact of what I'm saying is seen in the FACT that every minimum wage hike reduces minimum wage jobs and does not actually improve the purchasing power of minimum wage employees. And that is because, necessarily, the MARKET makes its own adjustments to the government's entirely arbitrary fiat.
I don't call it "socialism." I just call it "useless." It does not work; it does not produce the desired effect. And that is because even the government doesn't have the power to override the MARKET and set wages by fiat.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Oct 15, 2018 - 09:10pm PT
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If an employer uses the market to determine a fair wage . . .
The employer doesn't determine wages or prices. The market does.
DMT, if you don't have the time or inclination to read Milton & Rose Friedman's book, then I would encourage you to read the essay upon which much of it was loosely based: I Pencil, by Leonard Read.
https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/
As others have noted above, the Invisible Hand of the market has no agenda. Bureaucrats do. And while The Hand metes out goods, prices, wages in an imperfect manner--it remains far better than any economic alternative yet tried. Particularly those built around central planning by government.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Oct 15, 2018 - 09:21pm PT
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Oi de hecho, mi amigo! You are missing some fundamentals on this one.
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