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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 21, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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And that's why I was suggesting maybe an academic environment, if you really want to test your ideas against a rigorous and qualified opponent.
I wasn't being snippy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 21, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
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I just let Lynn talk extemporaneously about gender relations and climbing.
I didn't go into it with a list of discrete questions. And we didn't really talk about feminism per se.
I crunched my notes into a Word document. That needs more work, so it hasn't been forwarded to her yet for a review.
But there's nothing in there which would answer your specific challenge concerning the notion of the patriarchy, or the lack of it, and whether that would dismantle the foundation of feminist ideology.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
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it's likely she has some thought provoking ideas about female climbers in relation to males, which is where this started.
Whether thought provoking or not, I'd probably just have to kick it out here and see. Certainly relevant, though, much of it we've already covered.
I would expect her vocalizations would be measured, and unlikely to be too controversial.
Something like that, though not necessarily by design. She was pretty comfortable with the idea that I might relate her perspectives.
I felt we had moved beyond most of what came out of my conversation with her, so I put it down after my initial dictation of the notes.
It may breathe new life into the conversation, as you said, but we may also be at a point where the thread is a bit long in the tooth, and most of our readers and contributors here have moved on.
If you want me to continue to pursue shaping the thing up, I'll be happy to do it. Currently signing off for the night, cheers.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Sep 22, 2017 - 06:19am PT
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Roy,
It was a simple typo - the u shouldn't be there. Probably why the post was confusing. Lo siento, wasn't trying to be unclear.
Kevin gave us an opinion in his first post. I agree with him and given the clarity and strong focus of his subsequent posts, I believe he meant nothing more beyond what he wrote. Read the words.
But the opinion was also narrow in scope. Fine; it's impossible to have a useful discussion if the topic isn't neatly circumscribed. But the subject at hand involves more than just the physical differences between men and women so trying to limit it to that - not likely to happen Kevin. It can be frustrating if you are trying to be logical and rational, but ideas just can't be disengaged from experiences and feelings.
I think that's what I'm trying to say.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 22, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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Thanks for the clarification, Dana.
So if this, your statement:
But the subject at hand involves more than just the physical differences between men and women so trying to limit it to that - not likely to happen Kevin. It can be frustrating if you are trying to be logical and rational, but ideas just can't be disengaged from experiences and feelings.
Is roughly equal to this, my statement:
I'm saying that it's an emotionally charged issue, so instead of people engaging with Kevin's observations and ideas, they're just giving him knee-jerk kick back.
 And I believe they are roughly equal, so yes, Dana, perhaps we are suggesting the same thing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 22, 2017 - 08:31am PT
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Moving forward, Kevin, you said:
no buddy here has the cajones or the interest to back me up in writing.
If that's referring to backing you up on this challenge:
[Kevin's] specific challenge concerning the notion of the patriarchy, or the lack of it, and whether that would dismantle the foundation of feminist ideology.
If I'm not backing you up on this ^, it's not for lack of vigor on my part. It's just that I don't know enough about the foundation of feminist ideology to say one way or the other.
It may be worth pointing out that the challenge from you which I'm identifying above, is more broad sweeping than the one from your initial post on this thread, made on August 8:
I'm glad my efforts to debunk third wave feminism and the associated gender denial are not going unnoticed.
And at this point, my head is beginning to get numb!
Not meant as a quip, just stating the fact that I am fatigued, out of ideas, and don't know where to go from here. So maybe it's getting close to the end of the line for me.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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Yes, Roy, that is what I was trying to say. Emotions are illogical but they have their own logic, a logic everyone knows and feels. Few people are like HW Tilman, talking to one of the mates on his ship
"Good god, man! Sugar and milk on your cornflakes?"
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:17am PT
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"Good god, man! Sugar and milk on your cornflakes?"
^
HA!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:10am PT
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Men are no better decision makers when they are in their comfort zone - thinking fast.
This thread is without statistics left to wit...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 22, 2017 - 11:03am PT
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Come on King T,
Maybe try a sense of humor on for size?
...
Kevin said:
Does that sum it up?
I don't know if it's any kind of maxim to live by, but I've seen it happen!
...
And Marlow probably has a point concerning the need for statistics.
...
Regardless, after all of it, I mean every last little itty bit of all of it, my face is about to melt off ...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 22, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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So we can agree that logic is unemotional, but emotions are logical
It's (bio)logical that women use emotion to counter logic when confronted with it
Does that sum it up?
One funny thing about this is that the argumentation can be seen as quite emotionally selective... Using Warbler's own reasoning: Is Warbler a woman?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 22, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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^^^
That's it!!!
I just hit the floor, haha.
Luckily, Lisa will be here to scrape up the residue of what was once Roy, when she gets home ...
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Sep 22, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
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I've been lurking here for awhile, and listening to the banter. For context, I just finished a "Sidecar" and am in a bar in Cortina Italy, scanning the amazing walls today, home of Comici and Messner.
Trying to think about the age old battle of genetic vs culture; past vs future, women and men. Kevin (I'm about he same age, not an elite climber like Kevin).I spent too much time in grad school in anthropology, not enough climbing. I'm not so convinced as Kevin about the gender stuff for climbing (but thinking about it way less). The rate of change may be high, and I think the science on this topic is not so well developed. One of my daughter's female friends has bouldered 30 feet uo on V10, it took my breath away. And she is did it on pure guts, adrenaline (not testosterone) and natural talent, not months of prep.
So I'm really unsure. And as for the "natural relationship" of tough men and sexy, sweet women, that seems a far away myth, something I learned in my church, but was not really the diverse reality of relationships or human potential. It is way more complex than I understand.
tom
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
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Marlow, TFPU. Very Cool intimate performance btn Christine and JJ. He actually smiles for a moment...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 23, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
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Gayle Sierens, Beth Mowens pfffft
hahahahaha
Janis Joplin was the first woman I ever heard call an NFL game.
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rbolton
Social climber
The home
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Sep 25, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
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Just an interesting side note on the post speculating that Kevin is actually a woman. When saw the photo below years ago my first thought was “Hmmmm...I don’t think I know her”.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 25, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
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Sweet
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rbolton
Social climber
The home
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Sep 25, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
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Heh-Heh-Heh...C'mon Kevin. You know you have some very pretty hair! Imagine my surprise after reading the caption. And to your credit, Freewheelin, Jigsaw, and Black Primo are three of the most amazing routes I've ever done.
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