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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:14am PT
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Mythologies are not pseudo science or proto-science they are manifestations of psychological needs that reconcile the individual to the grave and constant events and affects of living. To disparage myth because it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny is to simply misunderstand and misread it.
Biology may very well be the predicate to consciousness, but certainty in that regard, considering the complete lack of understanding science has as to what consciousness
actually is, is nothing more than faith predicated on an extremely limited scope of observation.
The mystery of "knowing consciousness" seems so rare and humanity so remarkable in that sense, I continue to be fascinated by the continually negative view of mankind as just transitory/finite and unimportant even worthless on this and other threads. It seems more and more to me simply an excuse for inaction and a lack of responsibility.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:27am PT
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We don't know if the space travel is possible or not because we don't have any examples of it ever happening
No intelligent alien life forms from another planet have been documented that would prove it's possible
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:30am PT
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the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... however,
the carefully worded scientific response is that we do not have any evidence of alien visitation, and our understanding of the process (in this case, interstellar travel by intelligent beings) indicates it is not likely to have happened.
unlike science, technology is not so easily constrained, e.g. no one uses the flip cell phone anymore, antiquated technology, but Capt. Kirk couldn't have imagined that technology obsolescence scenario in the 1960s, his communicator was so 2300's, now in the 2000's almost no one uses them.
on the other hand, you are never likely to be beamed-up, ever.
it is interesting that the legacy of "Bitchin' Betty" had threaded through the StarTrek computer voice to Siri...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitching_Betty
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:37am PT
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"the carefully worded scientific response is that we do not have any evidence of alien visitation, and our understanding of the process (in this case, interstellar travel by intelligent beings) indicates it is not likely to have happened.
I think the "burden of proof" doesn't fall on Craig. :-)
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:40am PT
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To disparage myth because it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny is to simply misunderstand and misread it.
Hi Paul, nowadays there a lot more attackers of mythologies simply because we know more than we used to. There are many examples, one would be that humans now know that the success or failure of crops are no longer dependent religious rituals such as prayer, and entirely dependent on proper watering, sun, and hopefully not locust plagues.
And since the focus of this thread is questioning if religion doing more harm than good in modern times, I assume that in your above quote you are referring to religious myths being disparaged because they can be proven untrue, wrong. I understand your statement but what I would like you to clarify is ending part of your quote which essentially says that those people who then prove religious myths wrong simply do not understand or misread those myths.
So I can better understand your point, can you elaborate and give some examples?
Unless of course I am missing the point of your quote completely?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 10, 2017 - 10:53am PT
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"To disparage myth because it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny is to simply misunderstand and misread it."
WTF???
myth
noun
1.
a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology
"ancient Greek myths"
2.
a widely held but false belief or idea.
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okay, whatever
climber
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Jun 10, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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I'm with Bob D'A on this. It's wonderful literature that does tell us something about ourselves as humans, over the ages, and everyone should read some of it as part of their Humanities education. But it's not science.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 10, 2017 - 11:25am PT
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I am maybe going out on a limb here but can I assume that Paul is a theist, does believe in supernatural beings, gods, and perhaps a Christian?
If so I hope he will tell me because it would help me in confirming a bias I feel he has.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 11:48am PT
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I don't think Paul can be stereotyped into one of your categories...
he is a critic of what he would term arrogant statements from scientists, an apt criticism. When one doesn't "know" something, they should say it, "I don't know."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2017 - 11:54am PT
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Wittgenstein famously said..."Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent."
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 10, 2017 - 11:56am PT
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Is Religion Doing More Harm Than Good These Days and does it have to do with anything going on today: Saturday June the 10th. This should be interesting, now let’s see if the MSM [Main Stream Media] gets the clues and connects the dots.
“March Against Sharia” demonstration organized by Act for America happening right now and coming to a city near you. “Trouble in River City” Pass out the ammo.
CIA, Walid Phares, Steve Gaffney and Mike Flynn but where is Eric Prince hiding? All the usual but new suspects.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 10, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
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"When one doesn't "know" something, they should say it, "I don't know."
I hope both Paul and Werner take your advice. :-)
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 10, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
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ok, let me ask my question another way
how is speaking out against something that is by definition suspect, wrong (a myth) and/or
in fact proven so by science then evidence that those speaking out do not understand the myth? Paul?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
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Scientists, by and large, are committed to a literal scientific description of reality.
In someways this is akin to a fundamentalists interpretation of a religious doctrine, a literal religious description of reality.
There is a vast spectrum of thought that is not literal, and generally thought of as a cop-out by both the scientists and the fundamentalists.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 10, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
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how is speaking out against something that is by definition suspect, wrong (a myth) and/or in fact proven so by science then evidence that those speaking out do not understand the myth? Paul?
Take any myth you want, but let's take one that seems outlandishly unscientific: the birth of Venus. Do you imagine it's untrue or does it communicate a truth to you? What does it really mean? Are we to believe there is a goddess named Venus? Why the myth? What does it do for us. You can't look at a myth as an example of some scientific postulate. There is reality in myth and that's why it's so effective and so helpful to so many.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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You can't look at a myth as an example of some scientific postulate. There is reality in myth and that's why it's so effective and so helpful to so many. the birth of Venus is just another mythological meme
Venus doesn't really influence anything besides those that want to think is does
How is it helpful to some?
it certainly doesn't effect atheists/skeptics
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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Ufology - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufology
Ufology is the study of reports, visual records, physical evidence, and other phenomena related .... On the other hand, skeptics have argued that UFOs are not a scientific problem at all, as there is no tangible physical evidence to study. .... no consensus concerning the nature and scientific importance of the UFO phenomenon ...
as there is no tangible physical evidence to study.
the consensus ends up equaling zero evidence
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 10, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
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Craig: . . . you have no further questions ??? You know enough already. Now it's you being silly and disingenuous.
I know nothing other than there is consciousness. It’s all that there is from what can be seen by me.
You?
Ed: What is "imaginable" spans a huge domain.
This could be the understatement of the year.
When one doesn't "know" something, they should say it, "I don't know."
That is a sign of wisdom.
One should next make a distinction between what one believes and what one knows.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 10, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
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When it comes to the real reality, it's a lot easier to know or not know
There are many subjects I know little about, so I don't claim knowledge of them
other subjects I know more about, so I like to debate them
Ed: What is "imaginable" spans a huge domain. the topic was any Imaginable space ships that can travel light years to deliver Intelligent alien life forms to earth
yet no imaginable space ship of any sort has ever been observed
Ed did admit that, did he not?
Are you attacking me for some kind of Bias about the topic you did not comprehend
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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