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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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What I find interesting is that as soon as the word Christian appears, the bashing begins.
I read something this morning, a simple sentence written by a Bible teacher talking about John, a friend of jesus and a fisherman.
"A fisherman would have been hard to convince that the glory of God dwelled more powerfully in a building made of stone than in a bright pink and purple sunset over the Sea of Galilee. I know this for a fact, I live with a fisherman."
Not all Christians live and breath church buildings. It's in the heart.
If I have learned anything in my nearly 8 years here on ST it is that a person should not lump people together, label them and stick them in a box.
Each one of us comes from a different upbringing, life circumstance and background. Living each day makes us the unique individual we are. I confess I used to put people in slots, labeling them, until I began to met each of you and began to know you and how you think and why you think as you do. It has been both humbling and enlightening for me.
Bashing, belittling and slandering others beliefs does nothing for anyone. Jess sayin', lynnie
Edit: and yes Werner, I totally agree. "For what price will a person sell their soul?"
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The bashing also starts with Muslims, liberals, socialists and everything else that is controversial.
It's whatever makes you uncomfortable when you see it being bashed.
Christians are ultra sensitive about their faith, any analysis of it is seen as BASHING.
I don't like seeing Hillary Clinton Bashed, so I ignore it, I know where it comes from, ignorance and hate.
I'm not bashing Christianity, I'm just asking questions that contradict Christianity's teachings.
Shouldn't any Strong religion be able to withstand any and all criticism.
Shouldn't you enjoy being able to defend your faith in a logical and rational manner?
If you can't, then you should read more about logical and rational explanations of the contradictions and shift your faith so it is in alignment with reality and the known facts.
Like I said before, you can't trap a scientist through questioning, they will never have "faith" in something "that can't be scientifically validated" that will bias their answers.
All questions can be answered with some type of scientific explanation.
I enjoy asking questions, and I enjoy answering questions.
Why get defensive?
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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If I have learned anything in my nearly 8 years here on ST it is that a person should not lump people together, label them and stick them in a box.
The thread author chose to label himself...
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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...and the moral of the story is?
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Oh...I thought the moral was don't fall into the trap of materialism and don't tempt fate.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I have nothing but respect for Blue, but he operates from a different code than the one i do or even understand. Same with Craig, who wants physical proof for non-physical phenomenon, and lacking same, declares there is "no such thing." But nobody ever said "God" was an object.
These are all fascination issues to me, but above and beyond what we might think about it, the more interesting question has to do with the real experiences people have once the doctrine is forgotten. At least to me.
Said differently, a topo map is a useful thing to have before heading up a big wall. But you're not up there to understand the topo or validate how "true" it is. Either way, the proof is in the climbing itself, so to speak, not what we think or believe about it. And when you have climbed the route and have your own direct experiences, the cognitive content of others is of second-hand value, at best.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Lynne,
As always, you post with grace and truth. As Cosmic pointed out, Daniel started this thread with an offer to answer questions people had of him. In my opinion, he has done so calmly, politely, logically and generously. I greatly appreciate it, and I greatly appreciate those who disagree with him that do so with the same politeness and openness.
I had great difficulty accepting that the Gospel was "good news," because it is good news only to those who see themselves as sinners. Let's just say I didn't exactly see the attraction of taking up my cross daily, or offering my life as a living sacrifice. Ultimately, Christianity requires complete humility of its followers and, being a typical climber, that is not a quality that comes easily to me. Add the seemingly obiquitous "holier than thou" attitude, express or implied, and that was enough to keep me on the outside, until God Himself intervened.
For this Christian, at least, the "holier than thou" attitudes I see still turn me off, but I haven't read them from Daniel or, really, any of the other Christians on this thread. I know that I don't deserve the blessing God gave me, and it's for that reason that I don't keep silent when I sense an invitation to share my faith, so please forgive me for burring into this thread. God's gift is too great, and the consequences of rejecting it too horrible, to keep my mouth shut.
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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who wants physical proof for non-physical phenomenon, and lacking same, declares there is "no such thing." But nobody ever said "God" was an object. Who says God is not an Object?
You say that.
How do you know? any proof of this?
Christians say something else, they say God does things, like saves people and the whole Jesus thing is very important
We look for a object called god and don't find one, so you shift the search for a non-object and call that God
what we look at all the non-objects and still don't find anything, then what?
Shift to the next thing that hasn't been thoroughly searched
on and on.
Can you be "God", and just be a regular human at the same time.
Man created God in his own image,
man will never find outside his own mind.
There is nothing out there, it's always come from inside the mind, there is no "God" in any true sense of the word
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Lynne is offended by a creationism meme?!
Sorry (not sorry) the True Believers are so easily offended, but
I'm just getting started
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
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I'm not bashing Christianity, I'm just asking questions that contradict Christianity's teachings.
Shouldn't any Strong religion be able to withstand any and all criticism.
Shouldn't you enjoy being able to defend your faith in a logical and rational manner? I'm enjoying myself!
Like I said before, you can't trap a scientist through questioning, they will never have "faith" in something "that can't be scientifically validated" that will bias their answers.
All questions can be answered with some type of scientific explanation.
Interesting. This is much, much different than what I have experienced.
These are all fascination issues to me, but above and beyond what we might think about it, the more interesting question has to do with the real experiences people have once the doctrine is forgotten. At least to me. What I would give to have the words to explain this. But I don't expect to be able to convey this peace, as is said in Philippians 4:7, "And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."
Conversely, I have been fascinated by what it is like to live life with a believe in only the physical and observable. People who remain optimistic through difficult times without faith in the hand of God impress and confuse me.
I know that I don't deserve the blessing God gave me, and it's for that reason that I don't keep silent when I sense an invitation to share my faith, so please forgive me for burring into this thread. God's gift is too great, and the consequences of rejecting it too horrible, to keep my mouth shut.
No need to apologize to anyone here John, you and everyone else add value to the conversation!
Thanks for the kind words and good questions. I like that this thread seems to still revolve around peoples' curiosity about each other, 500+ posts later.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It works the other way too...thank (oops) God.
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Norton
Social climber
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Hi Limping.
Ok, so I have a legitimate question for you.
And this is NOT meant to "trap" you in any way, just want to know how you personally deal with, justify the many, many inconsistencies in the Bible.
I am sure you are very aware of the simply awful passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy, among others.
Just a few examples:
The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).
In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)
I could go on and on and on, but I won't because you already know the Bible.
So my question; IF the Bible is the literal word of god, then how do you justify god telling humans to rape, enslave, and murder?
To myself, it is quite clear that ignorant sheep herders, men of their time, wrote those horrible parts of the Bible, and not a god.
So, the entire Bible either IS or is NOT the works or men or the word of god?
One cannot "cherry pick" in good conscious if one is a "true" Christian who believes that the entire Bible was not written by humans, can one?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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I've got a legitimate questions too:
Was the earth made in 6 days, if so, were dinosaurs alive with Jesus?
When the rapture happens and Christians ascend into heaven, how do they breathe in space?
thanks
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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How do they breath in space?
That's a silly question
They don't go all the way into space
they only go up into the clouds, where there's air
They got a whole heaven like thing going on up there
some kind of anti-gravity force field makes it so they can live up there
they grow food, build castles, hang with Jesus,
It's total Bliss!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Cosmic, isn't that great stuff!
jesus' experience started and ended with the HolySpirit at His side! The HS had knew this day of temptation was comin and had been preparing Jesus since birth. Since it is written that every man will be tempted from his own accord. The HS had to leave Jesus alone with satan. Up till this point, satan didn't know if Jesus was "The Christ". Satan had already tested countless others who also claimed to be THE Son of God. But they all failed. satan had known the Christ was coming since it was written(before the foundations of the earth). Both Jesus and satan quote scripture in this test/temptation. i think it's imperative we read chap.4 not with what the words materially describe, but look to the spiritual meaning. satan said; if thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Like this, it sounds like a test of magic, turning rocks into food, don't you think? i believe the stones satan was pointing at were the 10 commandment stones, also known as "The Law", "The Word". And the "bread" IS the Christ. From this standpoint i see a few avenues we could go down. 1. satan was prodding Jesus' proclamation of being the Son of God, for which than He should have the power to command the (stones)Law to become (Bread)Grace.
For which Jesus answered; it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." For me this reveals something about how much satan understands. satan is asking why doesnt God just give all sinners a hall pass. But Jesus understands that that would negate what God had already said, and that is primarily over the issuance of free-will to man..
i'd love to talk more on this.
Did you notice, once Jesus passed this test, and His faith was determined. The Angles returned to Him and ministered? Here's a great example of God working. He sent the spirit to lead Jesus into his temptation. Then the HS retracts allowing for jesus to choose His own good. This is faith God puts in us to do the right thing. I'm sure jesus knew he did the right thing once the spirit returned!
The Spirit too helps us in the same way..
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Norton, Patrick, Craig, Locker-
Don't knock post enlightenment cherry picking please! It's the only thing that's kept the Born Again's in my family from flogging my dope smoking, leftest ass.
Give the Muslims another hundred years and they'll be cherry picking from the convenience tree and then that religion will have a small degree of tolerability as well.
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