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Friend
climber
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Aug 18, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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I disagree with the idea that people are just jumping on someone's bandwagon. People are entitled to their own opinion, and if they coincide, that should tell you something.
Bob I looked up the thread you quoted. I either missed it or forgot about it. An entertaining discussion, and germane to the current topic...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1032254/Uncertainty-Principle-Mt-Woodson
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 18, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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I am not on the hill about every day like i used to be or i would have seen and removed the bolts in question long ago. I just heard about it, went and looked at it, and have talked it over with others who, like myself, have climbed at woodson for decades, and all agree that the bolts cant remain.
It is true that the rock suffers, so its unfortunate that the bolts were put in to begin with. Im honestly not doing it to be a dick, the bolts cant stay because they set a bad precedent, and stuff like this gets out of hand in a hurry. If those bolts are left there and given tacit approval what happens when someone decides to make painted boulder a lead? How can we say those bolts are ok but the ones you placed on painted boulder arent?
But lets step back from our climbers quarrel for a second and look at the bigger picture.
The majority of visitors to woodson are non climbers, and we as climbers have no special right to the rocks. Its bad enough that others have to see our chalk all over the holds, but at least it can be argued that chalk washes off. If we install hardware all over the rocks and in plain sight, people are going to start complaining, and if the issue of environmental and aesthetic degradation caused by climbers comes under examination it could result in a climbing ban.
Most of the bolts on woodson are pretty well hidden from view, and we would do well to keep our visible impact minimal, both as a courtesy to others and for our own good. There are arguments for and against the bolts (although one of them isnt how long they have been there), but the overriding factor in my opinion is that its way too visible. The anchor hardware is overkill too. Two bolts is plenty, the rest is an eyesore.
Ya the veiled threat is funny. Go ahead and threaten me, but do it to my face. Just be willing to accept the consequences if you do. But this can be settled peacefully and without a bunch of bluster. To escalate it to physical violence would be ridiculous, so lets not go there.
The bolter may not have realized that placing these bolts would be such a big deal to so many people, or that such a strong local ethic exists, we all make mistakes. Now knowing the level of disapproval, the gentlemanly thing to do would be for him to remove the bolts himself.
They are coming out no matter what, so why not make it right and do it yourself? It would be a class thing to do, and im sure earn a lot of respect for your intentions. Know that its nothing personal. I apologize in advance, but I speak for many when i say that it is necessary. Peace
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 18, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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Dont know how many people are aware of it, but a guy named Ed Worsman rap bolted uncertainty principle in 92. Greg Epperson carefully removed the bolts and patched the holes so well that not a trace of the bolting could be seen. Greg and I had talked about it, and I knew he was going to do it, but after he did he asked me what he should do with the hangers. We decided they should be returned to the owner, so i called Ed and had a nice talk with him. He wasnt happy but understood. I told him he could have his hangers back or he could donate them and i would make sure that every one of them found a good home on the hill. Ed gave me the hangers and thereby turned his gaffe into a public service. Those hangers are still in use today, on top of tower 1, tower 2, the control tower the vomitorium and elsewhere. Bad things can have a good ending when we work together
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 18, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
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Ron, is it the same route that was one of the TR's in the 1989 contest?
I remember that because I had only completed 9 routes and needed one more at the end of the day.
Or maybe it is the TR I knew as Angel in Flight. so-called because we threw a rope on it once in the 80s and floated up. I only remember the "name" and it was some slab along the road in that area.
I have no idea what the anchor was, but One other factor to consider is the approach to some routes might cause erosion, which wouldn't be caused by leading right off the road.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 18, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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the bolted slab
the bolts
you guys that never climbed on 1/4" bolts are crazy, that leeper rig is bombproof
definately safer but overdone and unsightly. The anchor bolts stay, minus the extra steel. Good belay anchors are always welcome, but lets tone it down some.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Aug 18, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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2-bolt "sport" route, or boulder problem? We report, you decide.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 18, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
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Splater, i competed in 89 and selected most of the routes and ran the contest in 92. I know it wasnt in my contest, in 89 i only went that high on the hill to zero on airstream, lol, so not sure if that route was in the comp or not. I was covering the 89 contest for rock and ice from a competitors point of view, but did so lousy i had to turn it into a humor piece. Ah days of glory, lol
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Aug 18, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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That was March '85, ya old geezer!
On another note: 3 bolt, 1 TCU sport route, or boulder problem?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 18, 2015 - 11:55pm PT
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^^^ which finish do you crazies do?
and what does Alcoa mean?
and how can I cheat right Stairway without the old cheatstones?
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 19, 2015 - 12:18am PT
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whoa herethewholetime, just because a line isnt in a guide does not mean that it has not been climbed. Anything that close to the road and that accessible has been climbed. Did you put in the 1/4" bolt and leeper hanger?
While I was tooling around the summit of that thing the other day it seemed very familiar. My memory is getting horrible, but Im pretty sure me and Allenby climbed all over that little slab on TR sometime back in the 80s. We used to carry 60 feet of 11mm rope to set up a TR on "anchorless" climbs. We also inspected every facet of every piece of rock up and down boulder row, as have dozens, if not hundreds of other climbers. No way that slab gets overlooked.
Anything accessible at woodson has been climbed. The only way you can claim an FA is if you had to to do significant clearing to access it, if there were loose flakes that would have been pulled off if it had been climbed, or if it had potato chip, ball bearing or lichen covered surface that had to be cleaned to make it climbable.
Do you see alot of woodson guides? What makes you think that every little thing that has been climbed is in a book somewhere? Back in the second wave of woodson development in the mid 80s, we were cutting trails to untouched boulders and doing literally hundreds of little problems that had never been climbed and we didnt list them in a guide, there was no guide other than brueckners little pamphlet until mike paul published his landmark 1985 guide.
After that i started adding stuff we and others were putting up to mikes guide. When development expanded beyond the scope of mikes topos, I used his format to make my own topos to document new routes. I ended up with hundreds of routes on those topos, which i figure was about 1/4 of the problems that had been done at that time.
Because it isnt in a guide in no way means that it has not been climbed. Your "FA" had probably been climbed dozens of times before you got to it.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 19, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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what was march 85 bob? my "championship bouldering" article in R&I? Told you my memory sucks, at least someone is keeping track of things....
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 19, 2015 - 12:24am PT
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Alcoa was once the biggest producer of aluminum cans in the world. It is an acronym for "aluminum company of america"
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Aug 19, 2015 - 01:25am PT
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Yep, ya addled old pork belly, you wrote that article for R&I in '85, for the March comp that good old Carmel "Double D" Schimmel set up. You were R&I's SoCal correspondent at the time. (Ringing any bells yet, gramps?) Good times! I zeroed on Driving South, with Werner belaying! ACK!! Chokemaster Bobo, they call me. Halcyon days.....
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Friend
climber
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Aug 19, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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I'll be darned, photographic evidence. That pile of cheater stones was the standard start for Stairway to Heaven BITD?? Say it ain't so.
There is a real obvious sequence from the ground, starting next to Alcoa with a sloping right handhold and a low left. It’s by far the hardest move on the climb, but doesn’t change the grade any... still 5.11c.
Edit: how many finishes does Alcoa have?? I've only ever done it via a desperate, wing and a prayer dyno.
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Scattergun
Trad climber
Encinitas
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Aug 19, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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If people leave this route alone I will refrain from any more Bolting unless you tell me what is needed. Promise!!!!!
Nobody sees this climb with bolts who is not a climber. the general public sees only an hour wait on Potato Chip Rock let's be real. Climbers have changing opinions no one climber has the real true sense nor the exact method of requesting this. And if you think your right maybe your not including me ok. In my heart of hearts we only wanted to give a cool and great moment for any climber who wanted a challenge, even if short. I and my friend's intent was all genuine, Maybe we were naive, but we still only wanted a good route for all. Anyway climb it, wether a lead or a top rope, it is a great climb.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 19, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
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scatter i dont doubt your intentions were good and im sure youre a good guy, but the bolts cant stay because it opens the door to more of the same.
Plus theres a sign down by the television screen that says its illegal to move anything or alter anything on the hill, as its designated open space parkland. Climbers have to be cool because there are very real access issues, and a climbing ban has been considered before. Lets not give anti climbers ammunition.
You can threaten to bolt elsewhere but that would be a really selfish and shortsighted thing to do. Just suck it up and learn from your mistake
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Aug 20, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
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Here are a couple of PM's I received from Roger Anderson AKA Scattergun
If you take them out I might start chipping all of your routes. Etc. Remember You have a lot more to lose than I do. I could take out a lot of your routes and take out all of your bolts on Suicide and chip at will. So Go for it. If you think its worth it. Remember every action has responsibility. Like mine I know.
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Scattergun
Trad climber
Encinitas
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Aug 20, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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I'm done. You guys are just too unreasonable will not be posting any more. This is not how or why I ever intended this to end up. Oh well. In the mean time there are plenty of other bolts that need out also. Just remember the past is not always the best guide for how things should progress into the future. Anyway happy climbing.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Aug 20, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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the ethic is what it is. What is unreasonable is for you to think that an exception should be made for you, scatter.
You are not the first person who has done something sketchy in a high visibility area thinking they can get a little "fame" on the cheap. You have to earn it. Retro bolting a tr problem that was probably first climbed before you were born....nuff said
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