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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:17am PT
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Here's the best part from the link I posted.
In the 1960s through 1980s, climbing next found its center in Yosemite, where legends created climbs and vice-versa. Faced with such a concentration of notable achievements, the ASSes cried foul in a feeble attempt to diminish the greats:
“Bachar soloed New Dimensions,” spoke the truth.
“It’s not as hard when you don’t have to place gear,” spoke the ASS.
“Whatever, dude,” spoke the rest of the climbing community.
“Kauk sent Midnight Lightning,” spoke the truth.
“It’s just a boulder problem,” spoke the ASS.
“Then you do it, dumbass,” spoke the rest of the climbing community.
“Croft soloed Astroman and the Rostrum before lunch,” spoke the truth.
“But he’s not an American,” spoke the ASS.
“Shut the f*#k up!” spoke the rest of the climbing community.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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At least some of the 5.9/10 death routes done by people climbing far below their abilities, though, should be up for consideration. And there's tons of those.
Rather those climbers living under the illusion that they are better climbers than they should reconsider venturing upward until they become honest about their skills as they currently stand.
Cheers!!!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:21am PT
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From my perspective, we have a mixing of genres: sport and trad climbing. Sport is all about technical difficulty, sans risk, so far as possible. Trad, conversely, combines skill in both risk management and technical difficulty.
Those having no interest or facility for risk management have no business trad climbing, nor is it their sovereign right to alter a trad route to fit a sport climber’s mentality. The problem is that “risk” is a very fluid term, and once it reaches a certain degree, the game changes and most of the crowd is quickly eliminated from participating.
It should be noted however that these eliminator routes, even by the most generous estimates, constitute less than five percent of the routes extant in the US. Probably much less. Here is my case for leaving them as is.
People who became proficient with run outs always approached the game in one basic way: They encountered routes that were far too scary at the time, routes that required them to change their approach, their mentality, their entire way of being in the world if they ever wanted to climb these routes.
Basically, these people jumped into climbing with both feet and allowed the demands of the routes to transform them entirely. Usually over a period of years, and after many trials they got proficient enough and mentally balanced and sufficiently focused to run the rope and survive the experience. The process of emersion into the sport, and letting the demands of the routes, just as you found them, transform them, was life altering to the person. They did not go into the game insisting that the game square with their rigid tastes or preferences of orientations. They were willing to change entirely to work toward a goal. And that process was always the greatest part of the trad game: learning to get past our fears and preferences and rising to the level of the route.
Now we have people coming along who look at a run-out climb – and balk. Instead of giving themselves over to the climbs just as they are, and letting the demands of the climb transform them, over a period of years, and paying ample dues, this new group wants no part of any transformational process, or to work at changing and growing into a route, or paying any dues. In short, they themselves are unwilling to nurture change in themselves in the development of self mastery and increased skill at risk management. Quite the contrary, this new group feel entitled to change the route so they can climb it right now.
Put differently, whereas the first group had a very uncompromising approach to the business, the second group is willing and even eager to compromise anything external to their own selves - so long as they themselves don’t have to evolve and change their attitude, beliefs and preferences. Basically, they want to climb the route at little to no risk, right now.
What’s wrong with this is we have the work of the first group - who invested their entire selves into the game, and wrought through discipline and a lot of work a kind of professional approach – now having their work revised by a second group totally unwilling to change, be transformed by the routes, or experience the process of working up the ladder till they have the skill and nerve to manage the run out with authority.
In a real sense it’s like grade schoolers (at the trad game, NOT the technical game) deciding the grad school curriculum. You'll get more students, but no grad students. Why is this important?
As mentioned, there are relatively few grad school routes. Destroying them, or reducing the need for risk management is not so much a crime against the old school, as it is robbing future generations of the life altering process of letting a certain kind of climbing change you, alter you rsense of the possible, demolish all fey notions of a precious wilderness experience as an excuse to be transformed by forces greater than yourself. The notion of skipping bolts to get the grad school experience is total crap. The only way this game works is if you HAVE to do the route as is – and run the rope. Elite thinking. Absolutely. But here you have to work at becoming elite, as you must do in music or physics or any damn thing worthwhile. It's not some "mythical" game of bragging rights.
This game is decidedly not for everyone, and the cost of making the routes for everyone is to rob the future of the greatest gift trad climbing has to offer: The chance to be transformed by routes just as they are, and to work past your limitations till you too can get out there and get it done.
JL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:29am PT
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The chance to be transformed by routes just as they are, and to work past your limitations till you too can get out there and get it done.
Beautiful post, John!
It gets it done.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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The issue is, those things are 40 years old, and no one's doing them. That's the issue here.
Then advertize them as sac enhancers...
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:39am PT
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those things are 40 years old, and no one's doing them.
They are in the mental Smithsonian Museum now.
An American classic, like BVB
You stupid monkey Hedge, when you gonna take that vacation.
Go visit the Putinator
You rascal no one uses dos 6.22 anymore either except paidclimber :-)
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:43am PT
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Sounds like the last 40 years of climbers considered those routes 'owned' hedge.
How else can you explain them staying is such pristine condition, complete as they were the day they became.
40 years of respect.
They get done, you are just not in the loop. Same hole counts too.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:46am PT
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Hedge I'm sure most of those routes could be rappelled into and you can setup a ___ feet of static rope to top rope them. No additional bolts needed and you won't get hurt.
I still can't believe we're posting on this troll of a thread - he hasn't offered any new arguments besides his original weak (sacless?) one. I guess more clicks/views = more ad revenue for SuperTopo, as least I hope.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:48am PT
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But don't try to tell people "I own the rock", and refuse to compromise. It's public land.
Well, that might just be the reason we want to leave as little a footprint as possible, eh...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:48am PT
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Climbing a bolted route and ignoring the bolts is like hiking down a hwy and pretending the hwy isn't there.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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The issue is, those things are 40 years old, and no one's doing them. That's the issue here.
Really? What would be some examples? This whole thread is a rehash of the National discussion that took place in the 80's. After a while it seemed like an equilibrium was reached, a community=wide understanding. If this is no longer the case, what's changed?
And in order to give some perspective to the debate, again, could you please give some examples of the routes that have your panties in such a bunch?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 12:55am PT
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There's nothing intelligent about your side of the argument.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:00am PT
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Hedge just go retrobolt whatever routes you want and see what happens. They'll either get chopped or they won't. Go big so you get your point across. Start the the BY or something
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:03am PT
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And one side stubbornly refused to compromise, and within a few years, a few of it's most prominent exponents abandoned ship, and that was all it took.
Any lessons learned there?
Yea, the Access Fund spent tons of time and money cooling the worries of the land managers and that a low profile for future climbs established on public lands was expected...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:03am PT
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Joe, unless you are willing to let us in on the secret, this is a huge waste of bandwidth. Examples?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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Exactly hedgy, owned.
FACT: they have the same hole count as they did on the fa.
So the last 40yrs 'got it', but you don't?
Bwhaahhaa!!!
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:20am PT
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I don't think any routes should be retrobolted. There's no reason for it. There's tons of well protected routes at every grade. What is retrobolting going to accomplish? How is it going to advance the sport?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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Seems fair that routes should be left as is & if u don't have the required skills then just TR it or find a buddy who'll drag u up there. What is wrong with that Jghedge? Why don't you just toprope? Can you address this point of view please & tell me how it won't work?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:24am PT
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Certainly hasn't happened in Yosemite. Every El Cap route has more bolts that it was FA'd with. Did the NPS complain, or care?
Let's narrow the scope a bit...
... is there any difference between adding bolts on big walls, long free routes, shorter routes, and single pitch routes? These each have their heritages, styles, and safety perceptions.
Different parts of the country have different ideas of what is cool.
Tell us how it should be.
Thanks!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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I meant they left them alone hedgy. They do get repeated, just not by average joe's....
But then you would have to be there, to know.
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