risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jun 24, 2013 - 04:40pm PT

if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

As Curt noted, it's way out of Obama/Holder's hands - the NSA's programs are authorized under the Patriot Act. The only recourse the administrations has is not signing intelligence appropriations. Or I suppose they could try and find a member of congress willing to front an Unpatriot Act.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jun 24, 2013 - 04:46pm PT

The head of the NSA, James Clapper, lied to congress when asked (lied directly to YOUR Senator Ron Wyden) when under oath. A lie through ommision is still a lie. Obama could and should have immediately fired him after reading the transcript. Link to an article from Slate, about as left leaning as it gets.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/06/fire_dni_james_clapper_he_lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html

This bullshit is on the executive branch.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jun 24, 2013 - 04:48pm PT

there you go joe. right on spelling out obama's impotence as a leader.

dont worry, your the type of guy who seems to like the smell of his sh#t so no harm no foul....but stop pretending that your liberal leanings or any more intelligent than someone who believes sarah palin all the time.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jun 24, 2013 - 05:29pm PT

We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.

He has not spent years "expanding many government program" other than pressuring the Taliban with drone strikes in Pakistan as a prelude to our Afghan withdrawal. What other programs are you talking about? The use of drones in targeted killings of suspected terrorists is nothing new.

The targeting of America citizens is unique to this presidency and that I agree is on dubious legal ground - but, that legal/constitutional ground was again made entirely murky before Obama ever took office. But, this is again a symptom of a form of asymmetric warfare we've heavily engendered and against which our military is now essentially useless. This will have to be settled by Congress and SCOTUS over time, but however that settles out the challenge of what to do with American citizens who turn against us will surely remain.

I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries"...

Then you clearly weren't following along with BushCo's Project for a New American Century which actually pushed for, and campaigned on, exactly that premise.

So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.

The former point was not Snowden's, it's yours. Ask the republican voters in West, TX if government is too big. The 'government's too big' mantra is simplistic beyond words if not complete fantasy and folly and those who would pare it down would do so in all the wrong ways. And in fact, they've been hamstringing regulatory oversight of industry after industry in every conceivable way possible for decades now, but greed is the only driver to-date with your mantra giving that greed cover. 'Smaller government' is in no way the answer - effective government is, as would be government for humans as opposed to corporations, but conservatives are dead set against any such change.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jun 24, 2013 - 05:48pm PT

Couchmaster: The head of the NSA, James Clapper, lied to congress when asked (lied directly to YOUR Senator Ron Wyden) when under oath. A lie through ommision is still a lie. Obama could and should have immediately fired him after reading the transcript. Link to an article from Slate, about as left leaning as it gets.

Clapper was responding in an open hearing to a question the answer to which he considered classified and so lied in response. You can argue, as other members of the Senate Intelligence Committee did, that Wyden - who, as a member of that committee and already knew the answer - deliberately put Clapper in an untenable position on purpose to publicly expose the NSA program.

As far as I'm concerned the distinction between Wyden's question and Snowden's release of NSA program information is basically negligible given both were deliberate. Maybe we should be indicting Wyden for treason as well given his intent was identical to Snowden's.

Hawkeye: there you go joe. right on spelling out obama's impotence as a leader.

You have a serious lack of understanding about the power of the Executive - it has nothing whatsoever to do with Obama - it wouldn't matter if Ron Paul, Mitt Romney. or God were president, he'd have no more recourse than Obama.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jun 24, 2013 - 06:19pm PT

joe the hypocrite. of course we knew that.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jun 24, 2013 - 06:22pm PT

I'll take that as a complement coming from Hawkeye the ignorant. The number of conservative heads spinning here is basically hysterical.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jun 24, 2013 - 06:29pm PT

no conservative here. neither do i blindly blame the other guy because of party lines. your ability to justify obama's impotence is really pathetic, especially since you have it in your head that your logical. logical like sarah palin logical, you are.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jun 24, 2013 - 06:32pm PT

I'm not going to stir the pot or even voice an opinion, but there was a very intelligent and civil discussion on The Diane Rehm Show today on NPR.

She consistently brings both sides into the conversation, and today's show was no exception.

Really good, and worth a listen.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/

J man

Trad climber

morgan hill

Jun 24, 2013 - 08:15pm PT

The retarded comments by rsin and his promising understudy jhedge are a
case study of the low information poster.

In April 2011, Ecuador declared the then-U.S. ambassador in Ecuador
persona non grata, citing alleged confidential cables released to the
public by WikiLeaks.

US Ambassador Heather Hodges would not give satisfactory answers when asked
by Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino on how she knew of corruption in the
police department. She did not give up intel about NSA PRISM to the
Ecuadorians.

From their veiwpoint Obama's Ambassador Hodges insulted the national pride
of Ecuador and therefore was expelled.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12979967

J man

Trad climber

morgan hill

Jun 24, 2013 - 08:31pm PT

jdhedge ok you are operating with a childs understanding of spy v spy.
and are unable to fathom what she did wrong.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jun 24, 2013 - 08:54pm PT

Then you clearly weren't following along with BushCo's Project for a New American Century which actually pushed for, and campaigned on, exactly that premise.

Not the first election, that was Bush's version of Hope and Change. Then came voter fear from 9/11, the war on terrorism and the patriot act for the Bushco opening act chapter 2. BTW, for "Blame Game" extra credit - how many members of congress, dem or repup, voted NOT to give the President authority to attact Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_presidential_campaign,_2000

"The former point was not Snowden's, it's yours."

Clearly he thought that the NSA and executive powers were out of control. But the man can still speak for himself...for now.

. 'Smaller government' is in no way the answer - effective government is, as would be government for humans as opposed to corporations, but conservatives are dead set against any such change.

You feel that you can effect change by singing Kumbayah? Uhhh, good luck with that. The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller goverment. The programs that remain will be easier to deal with along with the more commonsensical ones and stupid empire building projects will more than not drop by the wayside. Barring a powerful senator or 2 here or there and borrowing from the soon to be bankrupt Fed of course. Not that you will see a bankrupt FED, as due to their charter, they make 5% return on their activities. Basically they are bankrupting YOU to pay for things like this extra-constitutional illegal monitoring of everything you and I do. Because the Chinese are not loaning for stupid sh#t like this any more in case anyone missed that.

Have a nice day.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jun 24, 2013 - 08:58pm PT

Edward Snowden is trying to escape the long arm of U.S. law by flying in and out of countries that clearly don't mind annoying us, and just as clearly are not the exemplars of democracy, transparency and civil liberties he wishes his own country to be.

Snowden's itinerary appeared to be evolving throughout much of Sunday. He left Hong Kong, landed in Russia and was reportedly bound for Cuba and then Venezuela. Later, the foreign minister of Ecuador tweeted that his country had received an asylum request from Snowden.

So say you're a citizen of Hong Kong, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela or Ecuador, and you want to protest against your government, maybe even leak some big secrets. What kind of conditions and treatment might you expect? Nothing close to Snowden's standard for his own country, that's for sure. Here's what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch conclude in their 2013 world reports:

HONG KONG: The island does not have universal suffrage, police use "overly restrictive methods" in controlling assembly, and the government is not investigating claims that China is monitoring and intimidating Beijing critics based in Hong Kong, says Human Rights Watch. The group says that in a first, two people from mainland China were sentenced to "reeducation through labor" after participating in the annual July 1 pro-democracy demonstration in Hong Kong.

RUSSIA: According to Amnesty International, the definitions of treason and espionage in Russia were broadened to include sharing information with "or providing miscellaneous assistance" to foreign states and organizations whose activities are "directed against security of the Russian Federation." Human Rights Watch said the expanded definition of treason "could lead to criminal action against those who conduct international advocacy on human rights issues."

Also relevant to the Snowden saga: "Trials did not meet international standards of fairness, and the number of apparently politically motivated decisions grew." And "allegations of torture and other ill-treatment remained widely reported."

As for the overall atmosphere, there was "an unprecedented crackdown against civic activism" in Russia last year, including new laws that "restrict nongovernmental organizations and freedoms of assembly and expression." Libel was re-criminalized several months after it was decriminalized. Amnesty International said that human-rights defenders, journalists and lawyers faced harassment, and investigations into violence against them were "ineffective."

CUBA: Human Rights Watch calls Cuba "the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent" and says it does so using "short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. "The government continues to sentence dissidents to one to four-year prison terms in closed, summary trials, and holds others for extended periods without charge," the group says.

Amnesty International noted that Antonio Michel Lima Cruz, released in October after a two-year sentence, had been convicted of "insulting symbols of the homeland" and "public disorder" for singing anti-government songs. An opposition blogger was blocked from leaving the country for a conference. In addition, " access to information on the Internet remained challenging due to technical limitations and restrictions on content."

VENEZUELA: The power amassed by the government under the late president Hugo Chavez has enabled it to "intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticize the president or thwart his political agenda," writes Human Rights Watch. Reprisals against government critics have unnerved judges, journalists and human rights defenders. Chavez adopted laws that "dramatically reduce the public's right to obtain information held by the government." In addition, he packed the Supreme Court, which "has largely abdicated its role as a check on executive power." Voters narrowly chose a hand-picked Chavez ally to succeed Chavez in a disputed April election.

ECUADOR: This is the country that gave asylum last summer to Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks. He is now advising Snowden from inside the embassy of Ecuador in London, where he has been for a year.

Human Rights Watch in its latest annual report notes that journalists and media figures who criticize the government are subjected to "public denunciation and retaliatory litigation." In addition, it says, "Corruption, inefficiency, and political influence have plagued Ecuador's judiciary for years."

The group cites a "terrorism and sabotage" section of the criminal code that it says authorities are using against people protesting about issues like the environment. There's also a 2011 decree from President Rafael Correa allowing the government to monitor the activities of all international NGOs with offices in Ecuador, and rescind their authorizations to operate if, among other things, they resort to "political interference" or "attack public security and peace." And just last week, Human Rights Watch scored Ecuador for a new law it termed an "assault on free speech."

Like the other nations on Snowden's sanctuary search, this does not seem like his type of place.

The two groups did not spare America, which came in for criticism over the death penalty, its incarceration rate, and counter-terrorism policies that include lethal force, military commissions, and indefinite detentions at Guantanamo. However, Human Rights Watch also said that "The United States has a vibrant civil society and media that enjoy strong constitutional protections." In other words, the place Snowden is fleeing, though imperfect, likely comes closest to his ideal.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Jun 24, 2013 - 09:01pm PT

As a conservative, I concur.

After that maybe we can work to make Congressional bills decipherable. No more 1000+ page bills that nobody reads "until it's passed".

If it takes more than a handful of pages, make another bill that addresses the additional specifics. Washington is lacking in common-sense, or common-good. Pretty big on lobbyists.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jun 24, 2013 - 09:01pm PT

Think about it Tradman. If the claim that Snowden has 4 laptops full of info is true. China now has a copy of that info. All of it. He will fly to Russia. They will have full copies soon, so that they get the "truth" or the info directly anyway, and not a Chinese edited version. Not because Snowden gave it over, but simply because he left them in his hotel room and walked down for some KFC.

That's what that means. It's going to cost us, the taxpayer, shitload of scratch to get an intelligence lead like that again. We may all but had our own Enigma machine and he handed the codes over. We're getting f*#ked by Snowden while getting F*#ked by our own government. This game has been going on for quite some time. For myself, I'd rather be a winner, but I would concede at the start of any discourse that my distrust of big government (Chinese, Russian, and US) and of what appears to be near unrestricted political power sometimes clouds my reasoning.

Oh and Hawkeye, there is no need to denigrate Joe or anyone else you disagree with. He doesn't personally attack you. If he did I'd feel different. For myself, I find Healyjes responses intelligent, informed, interesting and challenging, even when he is wrong (heh heh). I think if someone can't argue against a point with intellect and reason, it's either saying that they are either A) WRONG. or B) A DUMBASS too stupid to reason a counter point. Sometimes just reading a point which you may disagree with the 2nd go round can change your assumptions and views. That's a good thing. Challenge yourself.

One of the problems with the net is that our responses, which can come out of both our life experience and book smarts, tend to get abbreviated. I just did it with the 2 word summation "Smaller government". Whereas in person I can expound on a lot of nuances that would mean and why. This Snowden issue has a lot of nuances and depth which we would be able to better convey in person.

Regards to all

michaeld

Sport climber

Sacramento

Jun 24, 2013 - 09:31pm PT

Complicated legislation? You mean hidden legislation? Legislation is pretty strait forward. Through, it's very repetitive to say the least.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jun 24, 2013 - 10:04pm PT

you are correct couchmaster.

healyje wants to blame the program on bush when obama himself has supported it publicly.

but hey, obama didnt build that, he had help. and taking responsibility is not this administrations strong point.

we are recording everyone's data and would have a sh#t fit if russia and china did it to us. we have lost our moral high ground, the same moral high ground that libtards wanted back when BO was elected. instead we got the shaft.