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kolos
climber
Hungary
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im simply stating my opinion kolos. When your one of the best climbers on the planet it does make you elite.
OK, and what is the point? Then they deserve "getting their asses kicked"? Your sentences came through for me as plain simple gloating.
And yes i believe it was a jobsite. I did not dispute this. But I also mentioned that a shared one. You did not really address my question and list the privileges the fixing team had on the mountain.
Its a pity the elite team couldnt climb somewhere else than the tourist route,for Everests sake, to make their eliteness more elite! As it was mentioned they were acclimatizing. Since they already had also a tent in Camp 3, I can imagine that they prepared their descent route.
And yes four holidays to Everest and one vacation
to K2 i am entitled to my opinion! You have infinitely more experience in these big mountain ranges than me (because I have nothing :)). And yes you can have an opinion, the problem if you can support it only with your previous trips and not with arguments. I raised a couple of questions in my previous post - barely any was addressed.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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You mean that the Sherpas own the mountain and that part was their exclusive "jobsite"?
Yes, by agreement of all the climbing groups on Everest this year that bothered to attend a meeting designed to reduce risk, particularly to the sherpa fixing the route, after a sherpa death in that location.
Of course, apparently there was one climbing group that had no interest in preventing injury/death to sherpa, and so, did not attend nor follow the agreement of everyone else on the mountain.
The Sherpas were there on the face because a couple of commercial expedition hired them to fix the rope for that part.
Why do you make stuff up? It was NOT "a couple", it was everyone else on the mountain, except the three dunces. Apparently everyone, hundreds and hundreds, were represented.
Could you define what kind of privileges had the Sherpas (or with other words: the commercial expedition which hired the Sherpas to fix) compared to the other team???
Are you obtuse? The Sherpa Fixing Team would have exclusive use of the face during the few days of their fixing the route to camp 3, by agreement of all the climbers on the mountain, that cared to participate in a safety meeting. ALL OTHER CLIMBERS ON THE MOUNTAIN AGREED TO THIS.
Have you addressed the topic what lead to the swear words?
Let's see. "You shouldn't be up here"
"You are a motherf*cker"
Actually Moro, Steck and Griffith did what they were allowed completely.
Here is the crux of your argument. There is no civility in climbing. If you see a rope at the bottom of a route that someone is climbing, it is yours to take. If you are on a climb, you feel free to piss on the following group. If you are on a climb, and encounter a fixed rope with climbers on it, you feel free to use the rope. If you are climbing, and encounter the gear left for retreat, bootay!
You do these things, because they are not prohibited, because you don't recognize the customs and courtesies of climbing. But don't be surprised when you encounter a knuckle sandwich for doing these things that are totally legal.
In one of my posts I asked somebody to list the big dangers caused by the Western climbers and compare them to the dangers which the commercial expeditions and clients mean for the Sherpas. Unsurprisingly there was no answer.
So your inarticulate point is that because there are things that are even more dangerous happening on the mountain, that one should not take safety precautions when one can? And you wonder why no one answers your drivel?
I imagine that doubling your harness is a waste of time, because it is much less dangerous than actual lead climbing.......
Please could you define what was elitist in the actions of the 3 climbers? They _climbed_.
They ignored attending an important safety meeting of the climbing community that directly impacted what they were doing.
They ignored the conclusions of that meeting, designed to decrease the risk to the Sherpa. Not other climbers, but specifically the Sherpa.
When warned ON THE MOUNTAIN of the agreed prohibition, and the safety concerns, they ignored the warning.
When asked not to cross the ropes of the fixing team (that is, you are tied in on a weighted rope, and someone is going to cross over those ropes with sharp crampons....you are saying that would give you no concern? That you would not want to have the people cross over higher, above the fixed safety ropes?), they ignored that request. They dislodged ice onto the Sherpa below.
Without permission, they took ropes and gear that was not theirs, and set up a route without consulting the owners or those responsible for the route. I imagine that they set the route in the spot most advantagous for THEM, leading others away from their tents, rather than the optimal route.
Do you routinely take others gear and set it up where you want on a route?
But to blame on the 3 Western climbers for this incident or state that they got what they deserved is completely unfair.
I agree, they did not get what they deserved. They deserve to be banned from climbing in Nepal, and be bashed by the climbing community. The deserve to lose their sponsorships, because as ambassadors of those companies, they stink.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Hilarious how Ken M only reads the reports that say what he wants to hear, despite the fact that many of those feature vague generalities and read like press releases written by the leaders of the commercial teams, then ignores anything (including first-hand accounts) that disagree with his pre-conceived "facts". He's still spouting lies that were debunked by the Russian team that was actually up on the face at the same time.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Actually, much more funny Spider, is that you only attack me with invective, but you don't dispute A SINGLE specific thing that I posted, which was not a compilation of facts, but a refutation of another posters incoherent drivel.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Has KenM ever climbed anything? I bet the "face" these guys were on didn't even require two tools. The dangerous workplace argument is such bullsh#t, 3 times more people died in the recent building collapse than the total amount of climber deaths on Everest (sherpa or otherwise)-- EVER.
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raymond phule
climber
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This post is obviously rhetorical.
When asked not to cross the ropes of the fixing team (that is, you are tied in on a weighted rope, and someone is going to cross over those ropes with sharp crampons....you are saying that would give you no concern? That you would not want to have the people cross over higher, above the fixed safety ropes?), they ignored that request. They dislodged ice onto the Sherpa below.
What are your sources for these claims? Why do you believe those sources when you obviously don't believe what Steck, Moro and Griffith say?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Has KenM ever climbed anything? I bet the "face" these guys were on didn't even require two tools. The dangerous workplace argument is such bullsh#t, 3 times more people died in the recent building collapse than the total amount of climber deaths on Everest (sherpa or otherwise)-- EVER
Oh, you are saying that the Westerners were such dorks, that they were using ice tools where they weren't even needed. Yep, you sound like an expert....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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What are your sources for these claims? Why do you believe those sources when you obviously don't believe what Steck, Moro and Griffith say?
The sources for my claims? STECK, MORO, GRIFFITH!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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No, I'm saying the danger to anyone where all this went down is highly exaggerated.
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raymond phule
climber
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The sources for my claims? STECK, MORO, GRIFFITH!
I don't remember reading that but I remember that they said that they didn't dislocate any ice that hit any Sherpa so you are at least wrong about that.
I am also pretty sure that you are wrong about the rest but you can of course show the exact quote and show that you are correct.
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John M
climber
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Raymond asked..
One thing I really don't understand is that 3 climbers crossing the rope at a belay during rope fixing is supposed to be a dangerous act because of the risk of ice falling on the roped up climbers.
I don't think this was the only reason. I don't have this kind of experience, so I am no expert, but it was stated earlier that crossing the rope that the lead climber was being belayed from was one of the things that set the lead climber off. Three unroped climbers tried to cross it. If just one of them slipped and fell then they could have pulled the lead climber off. At least thats the way I understand it. It would be nice to get an opinion from one of the experts. This may be common in Europe, but this isn't Europe, which is I believe one of the points that Jan was trying to make. Different culture and a higher altitude. There are no 22000 foot mountains in Europe.
This isn't to apologize for the Sherpas behavior, which some people seem to think Jan is doing. I believe she is just trying to help people understand the thinking of the Sherpas so that things can be settled peacefully. She said multiple times that what some of the Sherpas did was wrong.
A lot of this sounds like "well I heard that it happened this way". And that led to heightened tensions. Its even happening here on this thread and as far as I know, not one person on this thread was there.
I don't believe the one guy threatened to fight anyone. It just doesn't sound credible. I believe it was added to the story to unite the sherpas and get them angry enough to do something. Its just too bad that the something was to use stones to try and hurt someone. From everything I can see, Uli Steck isn't easily frightened, but he got the beejezus scared out of him. That was definitely not a good thing to do, but is kind of understandable when you take into account rural justice. Much like what happened in Peru. Some misunderstandings.. some crossing the line, a cultural heritage of group action combined with little to no justice system and bam.. people resort to violence to settle things. And in mobs, that can mean extreme violence. Its very telling that some of them covered their faces.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Now here's Denis Urubko (the best high-altitude climber in the world) absolutely tearing a hole into the account (from commercial operator Garret Madison, no doubt with a bunch of input from Russell Brice as well) that Ken M and Jan have been reciting as fact.
http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/news.php?id=21469
I have often seen Sherpas lose self-control, be the first to rush in to fight, begin the aggression, stretch for a weapon. I have seen this personally in all the conflicts that I have witnessed between Nepali and people of other nationalities. The western mindset on the contrary has been to resolve the problem without physical interaction.
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The steady stream of clients and crowding on Everest have resulted in a catastrophic drop of qualified high-altitude Sherpa. Commercial expeditions have to hire everybody for any money. This is why Nepali workers often perish in the icefall crevasses, they are inexperienced climbers who just recently learned how to use a jumar on the route.
...
Please imagine instead a Sirdar that was a good climber, knowing of the route conditions, respecting other people. He would not panic on 35-degree ice, especially not considering he was using a rope already fixed to camp 3 by Bolotov and I. Upon seeing skilled climbers Simone, Ueli, and John delicately cross the rope he would handle it professionally and nothing explosive would follow.
There are almost no rocks on the Lhotse slope, so it wouldn't be possible to hurt somebody below in such a way. Moro's crampons could cut loose only fragments ice at the most. The spot was in such a location that nothing could fall much more than 5 meters.
..
The majority of the so-called "sherpas" can't climb. At the most such commercial workers are able to use jumars and crampons to carry oxygen bottles and establish tents for clients on the Lhotse wall. Reaching higher is only their arrogance and pride.
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raymond phule
climber
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If just one of them slipped and fell then they could have pulled the lead climber off.
This really doesn't make sense if the crossed at the belay.
I believe that it is clear that it wasn't much of an safety issue up on the wall. It seems that the lead sherpa just got very irritated when he saw the climbers passing the rope.
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Large Commercial expedition companies have started reading this link with curiosity.
Consider if this happened.
A few days earlier
Ueli & Co. tell some Sherpa in camp that they plan to establish a Camp 3
Sherpa tell Ueli & Co. that they haven't fixed ropes up there yet
Ueli & Co. tell them that they won't need any fixed ropes after the ice fall
Ueli & Co. establish Camp 3 without fixed ropes or Sherpa to carry gear
Then descend
On the day
Sherpa are fixing above Camp 2
Ueli & Co. arrive above Camp 2 wants to go higher to his established Camp 3
Western Guides say "No. Our guys are fixing up there, you can't go"
Steck says we will stay to the side of them, we don't need their ropes
Sherpa and Guides grumble at them
After 30 mins of arguing, the Western Guides won't say "Okay, you can go". But they have stopped saying "No. You can't".
Ueli & Co. start to continue up
Sherpa chucks some ice at him
Ueli & Co. ignore it, keep moving, sticking to the side away from the fixing
As the day continues
Temps start to drop, wind starts whipping-up
Sherpa radio their 'bosses' about the conditions, start talking about going down if conditions continue to deteoriate
Conditions start to deteoriate a little more (as mentioned in dispatches) just as Ueli & Co. gets to a point in-line with their established Camp 3
Ueli & Co. go to cross to Camp 3 (over the fixed lines)
Sherpa yell at Ueli and Moro
Moro yells back (believing it stems from Sherpa being annoyed because Moro has been quite forward in telling people that the team doesn't need Sherpa help to climb the mountain once above the ice fall. Moro has been telling anyone who listens, about how lame it is to climb the Yak route with oxygen and gloat)
Weather continues to deteoriate
Sherpa fixing team goes down
Ueli is worried that he will be blamed by Western guides (who love to bitch and moan) for the fixed ropes not going higher that day
Ueli fixes a few hundred more metres of rope
Sherpa and guides are bitching about Moro on the radio
Ueli & Co. descends to Camp 2
*Sherpa have spoken of descending that day because of weather on the radio, but Ueli still managed to fix a few hundred more metres of rope for them
*Sherpa have been hearing Ueli & Co. tell everyone about how lame it is to gloat about the yak route. And how they don't need Sherpa help to climb the mountain above the ice fall
*This season, Western guiding companies have organised a consortium which is trying to lock-in prices for Sherpa. They have lobbied the Nepal government for this. While Sherpa aren't exactly satisfied with the fixed prices.
*Their is some competition among the Sherpa for the fixing work. Ueli decided to continue fixing when the Sherpa descended for the day. Well-intended, but hey....we know what many men are like when somebody else finishes a job that they want to be respected for. And it doesn't help that Urebko had also fixed a bunch if rope up there in the previous days.
*Moro is right that many lame people have done the Yak route and gloated. And is right to want to climb without Sherpa support. But the Sherpa see these statements as in-directly/directly disparaging. While Moro thinks that the tension was mostly to do with Sherpa frustration at guiding companies and their clients.
*Others see all this as being because of national tension in Nepal and talk big about how they know more about Sherpa culture then most anyone else in the world. Truth be-told, their is dysfunction and in-experience amongst the Sherpa on the mountain. They are happy-as when things are going cruisey, but when it gets tough, they bitch, moan and can be as aggressive as anyone else. Their was good reason for why the British loved the Gurkha soldier for particular roles.
*Physiology makes Sherpa strong for the mountain. But many of them have ownly ever climbed Dablam, Everest and Cho Oyu by fixed ropes. They have never climbed hard technical routes. Only, climbing yak routes. The best Sherpa guides don't do alot of the rope fixing now, they save energy for the summit days.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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According to Denis Urubko as I posted above, the Sherpa were on a rope that he and Sergei Bolotov had fixed previously.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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This season, Western guiding companies have organised a consortium which is trying to lock-in prices for Sherpa.
Price fixing is illegal under the Sherman Act, not sure about wage fixing, but it doesn't sound legal. Imagine if all the car companies got together and agreed that no factory worker at any of their plants would make more than X dollars per hour. Sounds like the Sherpas need to counter-organize. Do they have unions there? Do they have any agency like OSHA that regulates workplace safety?
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abrams
Sport climber
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Sherpas never climbed Everest or any other area mountain in the thousands of years they lived in the Khumbu until Westerners arrived.
Living next to the biggest mountains in the world and not developing a climbing culture of their own.
Sherpa would not be up there now if not being paid by Westerners.
And it continues to boggle their minds that we really like climbing mountains for fun while not getting paid to do it like they are.
edit:When a yak can get up the ice fall than we can call it a yak route.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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+1 Ron. This must be right, since we almost never agree about international politics. Nepal already regulates Mustang like that. The permit is like $3000 just to go hiking there. So is that pointy mountain, Machipuchare (sp?) that's probably the most beautiful one in the country. I think the permit for it is $15000 and its not even that big.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Who's to say the logistical and organization infrastructure exists to allow Sherpas to completely take over the guiding business? Would the clients who currently pay the sorts of fees that are charged now do so if the logistics and organization currently handed by Himex, IMG, etc. became a nightmare?
I'm no fan of guys like Russell Brice who don't really climb and are just pure businessmen (at least back when the commercial business started, the ones running the teams were accomplished climbers like Rob Hall, Scott Fischer, David Brashears, etc.), but how is them profiting while paying the Sherpa a relative pittance any different than the way multinational capitalism takes place elsewhere, like say Chinese workers who are payed little to nothing to work in poor conditions for the enrichment of American corporations?
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