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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 23, 2012 - 04:22am PT
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This is how wars get started, and Jason and Hayden have undoubtedly fired the opening salvo in one of the most legendary bolt wars of all time
Just a clarification that if a bolt war does break out, it was Maestri - not Jason and Hayden - who fired the "opening salvo"...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 23, 2012 - 05:45am PT
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if it happened 40 years ago ', and the badboys were repeated by the same means, you'd be right
does not look a bit 'too easy to say now?
to show the world that could be done in '70, Mr. Lama must now climb it means that time, all the clothing and the material of the 70s
We would also look good, why do not we try?
Poor argument.
Nobody is (rightfully) saying when they free climb a route that they are an inherently better climber than the person who aided it in the past.
Everything is conditional on equipment (and weather, icing, etc.).
All that a freed route means is that it can be free climbed with the equipment used and in the conditions experienced.
The SE Buttress could have been climbed without full pitch bolt ladders in the 1970s.
This is one point that I believe most of us agree on.
I do wonder what the ice conditions were at R10 when Maestri was there.
Was there a 10 ton ice block just above R10, like there was two years later for Leo Dickinson?
If so, maybe Maestri had the same problem reaching the arete of the 1968 route.
But I wonder if he could have bolted around the ice block instead of doing the 90m traverse.
Did he feel the arete might be blank?
Certainly he could see the chimney/crack system further right,
once he got to the initial arete on the right ("start of 90m traverse" photo).
And he could see that the chimney system was reachable by extending the traverse with the power bolting.
Or he may have planned in advance to reach the chimneys, from prior examination of photos.
The problem was that the power bolting changed the "time cost" of pitch location.
And there is a secondary problem of
"I brought this bolting equipment all the way up here; I might as well use it."
Many of us have experienced this (usually as added belay bolts).
If he was bolting by hand, I think he would have gone around the ice block and gone up the arete.
[Edit: I found the answer to this, right on Rolo's site]
"The bolt traverse was climbed in the winter when a big snow mushroom blocked passage on the ridge itself." http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html
So the power drill (in the second attempt, Feb. 1971) was not a factor in choosing the 90m traverse; they established that traverse in June 1970 on their first attempt.
In the same way, the existence of bolt ladders change the "time cost" of pitch selection by subsequent parties, like Dickinson's.
"It will be faster / safer to use the ladder; it's already here, everybody uses it, ...."
That's why it is helpful for the ladders to be removed.
No more temptation to the dark side. :-)
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maze
Ice climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 08:17am PT
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fordaibal, i think you are doing some mistakes, generalizing a single (for me, arrogant..) act of an american and a canadian guys whit all the US. it's irritating, and i'm italian.
Regards
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 23, 2012 - 08:21am PT
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so your nickname is better "labirinto"
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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Jan 23, 2012 - 08:50am PT
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fňradaiball, google translator is probably not the best way to communicate because you seem to be missing my point.
The Nose and Salathe were put up in an acceptable style at the time. The Compressor was put up in the worst possible style in its time, it was a disgrace and the climbing community seems to agree on this. You cannot compare the two.
Maestri chose to force his way up instead of retreating. He lowered the mountain to his level. How he got up didn't matter to him. It's an attitude the climbing community has been fighting for 4 decades (starting with Messner). It is an ethical issue, and a difficult one at that. Why not put up an escalator to the top? Where do we draw the line? One thing is clear - people seem to agree that Maestri did cross the line. So, that route should not have been there. Period.
It is a happy ending, people! A terrible injustice has been amended. We should all be rejoicing, not lamenting...
(The only reason to lament is if you were somehow personally invested in climbing that route, like Shipoopi. I understand why he is upset, but that's a very personal, dare i say selfish, reason. Steve, with your credentials, I'm sure you won't have any trouble climbing the "new" route. And you will have actually climbed the mountain, as opposed to climbing a ladder to the top. Go get the friggin' second ascent! ;)
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 09:37am PT
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Steve Schneider:
As someone who has put in a lot of time on the Compressor route I think your personal views are very valid and can completely understand why something like this would upset you. That being said, I would say that no one is forcing you to climb the west face or any other route on the mountain. The Compressor Route, in the sense of the line up the rock, is still there; it's not like holds were chipped or erased from the rock itself. A climber with your talent and experience shouldn't have much trouble either drilling new bolts (there's already starter holes to use! :) ) or using bathooks/batheads in the holes to get up the line. And I fully support your right (or anyone else's) to climb that line and put in whatever protection you think is necessary. Somehow, I doubt you would place 400 bolts.
Really, to me the shame of the Compressor Route is that it's a line that seemingly has so much more to do with the protection than it does with the climbing, and least based on how it's discussed in the public sphere. Maybe this Lama free climb (if confirmed, and after details emerge) will help change that.
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BeeTee
Social climber
Valdez Alaska
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:08am PT
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So some young hotshots come long forty years later and chop a historic route.. how sanctimonious we climbers are ....
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fsck
climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:16am PT
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historic garbage
left by an unchecked ego
good riddance to it
K&K Cleaners
janitors of the wild
open on sundays
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:32am PT
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So David Lama stepped up to the plate and now their is a better route and the bolts that were removed proved unnecessary.
Can't we all just get along?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Oh come on just go pick the Nose already.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:55am PT
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All this straw-manning about The Nose and its bolts is getting kind of tiresome. I wonder if any of the keyboard warriors threatening to chop it will even turn up in the valley let alone go up there and do the deed.
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FeelioBabar
Trad climber
One drink ahead of my past.
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Jan 23, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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awesome ascent.
...but chopping the bolts is just pissing on the route again.......(sigh).
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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It must be really embarassing for David Lama to have to wear that stupid Red Bull cap. Poor guy.
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:10am PT
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careful there BlackSpider, though fallacies of logic have been committed at an epic rate few actually understand "straw-man". (they probably think of Dorothy and Toto)
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Philo,
Should I go chop The Grand Wall route in Squamish, it has tons of ladders, and was very controversial and I did a fairesh means ascent, all free to boot?
Should I feel better and holier than all those who came before me, and those who cannot free the route and proclaim once and for all, I'm God? Remove the ladders and let the world know they are not worthy?
What say you great sage? Good suggestion.
The Nose has been mentioned because is a historical route, with bolt ladders, which has been controversial when it was climbed.
But since these two guys arbitrarily decided to chop the Compressor's bolts, I don't see why this principle cannot be applied elsewhere.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Coz, a bit non sequitur I should think but if that's what would float your boat then by all means go for it.
I think you are unfairly condemning K&K with personality traits and motivations that they probably don't have.
So Enzolino by the extension of your logic of precedence can i show up in the Dolomites and haul a gas compressor to bolt a directisima ladder on any wall I want and leave the machinery hanging if I want?
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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So Enzolino by the extension of your logic of precedence can i show up in the Dolomites and haul a gas compressor to bolt a directisima ladder on any wall I want and leave the machinery hanging if I want?
Not only ... you can go to Dolomite, re-write the history of those places, even change the names of the routes, of the summits, question all the ascents without proof and attribute your self the credit of previous routes if who opened them did not really reach the very summit ... and to support your action you can artfully design an ethical propaganda against those climbers who opened the Direttissimas more than 40 years ago ...
Someone else has already done it ... in Patagonia ...
http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/pataclimb-when-toponymy-hides-a-crusade/
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Curiously many people seem extremely concerned with the Argentinean opinion but what about the Chilean perspective? The area spans both countries.
http://www.pauldeegan.com/destinations/oth_patagonia.pdf
Where Is It And Who Owns It?
Patagonia is not a political country but a geographic anomaly. Spanning two
countries - Argentina and Chile - Patagonia occupies of up to one million square
kilometres, yet just 5% of both nations’ populations live there. In Argentina,
Patagonia is generally understood to begin south of the Rio Colorado, but in Chile
this definition encompasses areas like their Lake District. Chileans on the other
hand recognise Patagonia as being the land south of Puerto Montt (a much
smaller area). Even then some Chileans believe that Patagonia exists only in
Argentina. As one local Chilean informed me in no uncertain terms, “This is not
Patagonia - this in Magellanes!” (Magellan was the Spanish explorer who
explored much of this region. Ironically, it is he who is credited with coming up
with the name Patagonia!) The World Service’s definition of what has become
recognised as Patagonia in popular circles is the land south of Puerto Montt. Look
in an atlas and you’ll see that Argentine Patagonia is for the most part as flat as a
pancake, whilst the Chilean side is littered with mountains that stretch like a spine
all the way to Cape Horn.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 23, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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MH2, who could possibly care about what some climber from a hundred years ago has to say?
Ha ha. I care what every climber has to say but don't have time to listen to all of them.
There is more like a probable resemblance between you and the guy John Gill thanked for the translation, Randisi.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jan 23, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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damn, good thing bolts can't be placed, removed and replaced by strokes on a key board or lip flapping...
thanks to the Italians for a valiant effort here...to get some Americans to speak a second language.
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