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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
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christ you sh#t f*#king scum dont miss a chance to hate on girls indians and niggers
fraud is defined by statue
why you christian all hot to protect darling criminals just cuz they prey upon those individuals you got your predatory eye on?
war,
clearly you have issues with minorities and women. i take it you were probably not breast fed and an illegal nanny must have raised you with a cold baba. maybe that also contributed to your lack of reading comprehension.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
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I find myself in the uncomfortable position of partially agreeing with war on credit card interest rates. The initial credit card rate is subject to contract, so there we still disagree. Where I think regulation comes in, however, are in the default rates.
I represented many lenders and borrowers when I actively practiced law, but on the consumer side, I exclusively represented borrowers, so I acknowledge a bias. Many of my clients saw their initial interest rates increased from around 18% to almost 40% around 2004-05. When I started practicing in 1979 (when the prime rate was around 18%), those who charged 40% didn't use the legal system to enforce their debts -- they just used cement shoes.
There is a well-settled doctrine in contract law that says that parties can contract for reasonable liquidated damages if the damages are difficult to ascertain with certainty beforehand, and the agreed result reasonably reflects what damages could be. If they do not, however, the "liquidated damages" are an illegal penalty (think of them as the commercial equivalent of a pound of flesh), and are unenforceable.
Courts in commercial settings seldom uphold default interest rates that exceed 5% added to the contract rate, though I have seen default rate additionas as high as 7% upheld in rare cases. That same doctrine would make the 20% bumps I've seen in consumer cases illegal penalties, but consumers can't afford to litigate that, particularly with arbitration clauses that would make it difficult for consumers to get their attorney's fees reimbursed.
For these reasons, I support limitations of consumer default rates. The commercial cases I dealt with usually related to seven-figure-plus loans, and both parties could afford to litigate illegal terms, so I see no need for commercial regulation, but a loan made for personal, family or household use, that involves an interest penalty that exceeds 5% should be presumptively illegal IMHO.
John
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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john,
raising rates once one has a debt seems bogus to me. but if someone signs up for a lousy rate, then proceeds to spend more than they can pay, then that person is an idiot.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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Agree, Hawkeye. I just don't think we should enforce terms against stupid individuals that courts would not enforce against stupid commercial borrowers.
John
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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sounds reasonable except for one thing. some stupid borrowers should be held accountable or its people like you and i that foot the bill to pay for their ignorance.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
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raising rates once one has a debt seems bogus to me. but if someone signs up for a lousy rate, then proceeds to spend more than they can pay, then that person is an idiot.
I get notices ALL the time from credit card companies that they are changing the terms without my consent. What's up with that? It doesn't bother me because I pay my cards off monthly, but it seems they are changing the contract I signed up for.
A lot of people lose their jobs, pay for things with credit cards to survive, then miss a payment and their rate goes from 11-18% to 25-50%. That's BS and where the government needs to intervene and specify a maximum increase and maximum penalties.
But there are also a lot of people who buy things they can't afford on credit, can't pay for it, and declare bankruptcy and wipe that debt out and the rest of us pay, which is bogus as well.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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then that person is an idiot.
Usually.. But There are times when people use cards to feed and house their families because some calamity has befallen them. They mistakenly think that they will be able to rise out of the calamity shortly, but then find that the calamity is lengthened, and then find themselves in a trap. It happens more then many people realize. Lots of those folks find a way out, but there are still plenty who don't.
Misakes? Idiots? sometimes it is in perspective. I have helped counsel multiple people out of debt who got trapped by a health problem in the family followed by a lost job due to a declining economy or just a lousy business plan. Its not all peaches and roses out there.
One of Lois' problems is that she perceives everything through her experience. Her experience is based on working in a field where demand for workers has not gone down in her entire work history, which has given her a strong bargaining position. But that is a rare industry and not everyone can work in it. What would happen if everyone decided to go into healthcare? There would then be a glut of workers and her wages would go down, through no fault of her own.
Does Jaybro's decision to become a teacher mean that he was an idiot when the economy went south and our nation decided we didn't really need teachers? I don't think so.
Life isn't as simple as "just work hard and make smart decisions". I wish it were, but there are many things complicating life beyond your own decisions.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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I get notices ALL the time from credit card companies that they are changing the terms without my consent. What's up with that? It doesn't bother me because I pay my cards off monthly, but it seems they are changing the contract I signed up for.
A lot of people lose their jobs, pay for things with credit cards to survive, then miss a payment and their rate goes from 11-18% to 25-50%. That's BS and where the government needs to intervene and specify a maximum increase and maximum penalties.
But there are also a lot of people who buy things they can't afford on credit, can't pay for it, and declare bankruptcy and wipe that debt out and the rest of us pay, which is bogus as well.
i agree.
the fundamental issue today is the unemployment. what seemed like a good career 20 years ago is no longer. in order to survive people need to be more nimble, work at creating opportunities for themselves through education and experience. and it is going to get worse. in places like india there are a high number of technical people that will work for pennies as compared to us and even tech jobs will be outsourced. i have seen it on a project i am currently on.
what this means is that people who want to stay gainfully employed must develop other skills to navigate through through this minefield that is home to trashed lives, unemployed professional degreed people and others. you may even have to move around to a less desireable place.
at the end of the day there are things that people can do to afect the outcome. OWS is stupid. they ought to be OCH (occupying capitol hill).
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
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Dr. F,
life has changed for the indian as much as it has for many non-indians.
my ancestors came across america in wagon trains very early. i cannot ggo shoot an elk when i am hungry without getting thrown in jail or fined. that just sucks.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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an investor has skin in the game,
a speculator doesnt
a speculator has to pay the same per share price as anyone else.
do you have the balls for that?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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btw hawk,
shooting an animal served one purpose back then
serves another entirely today
an entirely different purpose
its sad to see
you sucking prick for
today
war,
i see that lack of breast feeding is really getting to you. do you want that included as a social program as well?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
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OWS is stupid. they ought to be OCH (occupying capitol hill).
It doesn't matter where they occupy, they are just trying to raise awareness of the undue influence very wealthy people have on government.
Unfortuneatly what shold be their primary message is being polluted by far lefties, arrests, and unrelated demands.
It's the same with the Tea Party. Their primary message should be to limit the spending of government which is a good message and we should have people being a watchdog for that. But then they cite examples of welfare which is a drop in the bucket compared to defence and other spending that should be reduced.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
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and yet, you still pull your skirt up over your face to avoid skin in the game
that aint balls sonny,
thats pussy
you should post a pic, seeing as your showing it off
war,
sorry but you are not my type. you ought to check out some social programs for folks like you. there are probably drugs that might help you out as well.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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It doesn't matter where they occupy, they are just trying to raise awareness of the undue influence very wealthy people have on government.
i am with you here and believe that all lobbying should be outlawed. i also believe in limiting the amount of money spent on campaigns so as to minimize the resulting prostitution.
It's the same with the Tea Party. Their primary message should be to limit the spending of government which is a good message and we should have people being a watchdog for that. But then they cite examples of welfare which is a drop in the bucket compared to defence and other spending that should be reduced.
i agree with you here as well. tea partiers are misguided souls.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
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Did anyone check on Karodrinker?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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well for starters,
how about the banks pay restitution to everyone they have criminally forclosed on?
war,
I'm unaware of a single ciminal foreclosure proceeding by any California bank on California real estate. Not one. Perhaps you can identify one for me.
In addition, your distinction between an investor and a speculator makes no sense, and differs from the standard definition in economics, finance and Webster's, which defines a speculator as one who buys or sells land, stock, commodities, etc., usually in the face of higher than ordinary risk, hoping to take advantage of an expected rise or fall in price.
Speculators status has nothing to do with the amount of skin in the game; it has to do with an investment strategy founded on an expected price change to reflect what the spectulator believes to be the true conditions in the market for the commodity in which they speculate. Thus, if I think gold is priced too low, I buy gold (or pay for an option to buy gold at the current price). If the price rises I make money. If it stays the same, I lose any interest. If it falls, I lose.
Speculators perform the necessary function of adjusting market prices to market reality. If I expect prices to move, it means i perceive the current market price incorrectly reflects the reality of supply and demand. By speculating, I help move the price in what i think is the proper direction. If I'm right, I can reap a handsome reward. If I'm wrong, I receive financial punishment. On its face, there's nothing wrong -- and much right -- with speculation.
If we judge by how much skin is in the game, we should eliminate HUD, the FHA, Fannie, Freddie, etc and, essentially, eliminate very low downpayment loans. Most states, California included, do not allow a creditor to obtain a deficiency judgment on a mortgage or deed of trust securing the purchase money for a residence (See California Code of Civil Procedure Section 580b, as one example). Thus, most of the homebuyers in California who put very little down effectively have no skin in the game. Do you really mean that they're all speculators?
John
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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John,
war has been talking about skin in the game ever since his mama neglected to breast feed him. some people just never get over it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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I find dicussion of the "Occupy" movement and the Tea Partiers rather interesting.
Despite the best attempts of the MSM to descredit them, the Tea Partiers came by the millions, assembled legally and peaceably, had specific demands, and successfully elected politicians committing to executing those demands.
In contrast, the Occupiers, despite the MSM's attempt to portray them as a significant movement, come by the hundreds, have no discernable demands, have often assembled illegally and caused great inconvenience for those unfortunate enough to be in the same place, and come accross as juvenile whiners envious of those with money.
I find the Democrats' attempts to identify with the Occupiers curious at best, and indicative of their lack of any clue about what to do -- and their sole hope being to get elected through jealousy and envy.
John
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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while your at ot,
care to inform us who taught you to hate darkies and lust after their blood?
war,
you really do not understand the written word, do you? your interpretation and perspective on things is not reflective of reality. i am thinking that LEB might have a cure.
i never said anything about racism, ever. but you certainly indicated that you thought woman and minorities were not as smart as others. what is your beef with them? does that go back to time in your mom's womb? maybe she listened to too much heavy metal? my guess is that it all goes back to no breast feeding and an illegal nanny not worming your baba up, but i admit, i am not an expert in these matters. LEB?
are you related to AC? perehaps you were his twin seperated at birth as you both seem to be twisted in a unique and perverse sort of way.
i would support social programs for you but i doubt that breast feeding at your age is included....
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 12, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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I take it from your answers, war, that you have no criminal foreclosure cases either, despite some very agressive DA's who would love to go after the banks.
John
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