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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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donini--if you want a serious answer to your question, you should brush up on evolutionary biology and psychology. (I'm not talking any right wing bullsh#t--just mainstream stuff.) It would be startling if people (men in particular, and that's not a coincidence or product of culture) were NOT extremely interested in tools that allow them to project power.
Human nature comprises lots of things that aren't pretty: tribalism, violence at individual and group levels, sexual aggression, etc.
As people with brains (some bigger than others), we must try to reconcile these base impulses with how to peacefully coexist and thrive in the modern world. But let's not pretend that it's surprising or unusual for people to think how they can attack and defend against animals and other people, or that such thoughts are only products of diseased minds or cultures--that's just puerile.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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Blah blah read what I have to say. I'm NOT against weapons for self defense or even hunting, if that's your bag, but the American obsession with weapons of no practical "legal" value is beyond weird and needs to be better legislated.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Donini
Good points. Not to pry, but were you w/ the 5th? Bad Tolz maybe? Knew a couple of guys who were there years ago.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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7th Fort Bragg.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Thanks Coz. If I talk about small dick syndrome people will assume It's not a problem for me, something like a wanted criminal hiding next to the police station.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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Donini,
On behalf of me & my family,
THANK YOU!
PS: Great to be paid to play w/ all those items.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 28, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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Hey, I was a 11Bravo Dragon Gunner (qualified expert) in the US Army Infantry. Can I get a permit for that now? I was pretty darn good with that wire guided scaled down Tow Gun of a weapon. Dang. It would be perfect for personal safety don't you think? Just sling it over my chest and mount it on my shoulder at a moments notice. One shot though. Bummer. No reloading possible.
You know really, I'm going to take a view of personal faith now. And this is really how I feel about it . . .
The good book says if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. In the Garden when Christ was betrayed, Peter cut the ear off of a Roman Guard in defense with his knife, and Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, GOD with us, had to admonish Peter for his act of violence and then healed the soldier's ear whole on the spot. Peter was wrong. And tho I walk through the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for GOD is with me, paraphrasing the good book. And in the Lord's Prayer Jesus teaches us to pray and ask, " . . . deliver us from evil . . ."
You know I'm just going to trust GOD and keep praying and asking for his love, care, and protection. I don't need a physical gun to protect me and my family. I got the biggest, baddest gun out there, faith in GOD and his promise to protect me and my family. And we have a legion of Angels that have our backs. If something happens then it is allowed to happen for a reason, a purpose. I just can't really worry about that. There is life to live and good works to do helping others, like Cragman does.
Hey, you have a Constitutional Right to your guns, have at it, only use them for what they are really intended for. Hunting or target shooting. Don't ever take another life if you can help it. Yes, you have a right to self defense but hopefully you never have to use it.
Once again, bullets can never change the hearts of men, only words of peace can.
Good night.
Edit: Here is the real story and not the story from flawed memory on my part . . .
Matthew 26:45-55 (KJV)
[45] Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
[46] Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.
[47] And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
[48] Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
[49] And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
[50] And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
[51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
[52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
[54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
[55] In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 28, 2010 - 03:50am PT
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"Men of God and men of war have strange affinities."
"Suppose two men at cards with nothing to wager save their lives. Who has not heard such a tale? A turn of the card. The whole universe for such a player has labored clanking to his moment which will tell if he is to die at that man’s hand or that man at his. What more certain validation of a man’s worth could there be? This enhancement of the game to its ultimate state admits no argument concerning the notion of fate. The selection of one man over another is a preference absolute and irrevocable and it is a dull man indeed who could reckon so profound a decision without agency or significance either one. In such games as have for their stake the annihilation of the defeated the decisions are quite clear. This man holding this particular arrangement of cards in his hand is thereby removed from existence. This is the nature of war, whose stake is at once the game and the authority and the justification. Seen so, war is the truest form of divination. It is the testing of one’s will and the will of another within that larger will which because it binds them is therefore forced to select. War is the ultimate game because war is at last a forcing of the unity of existence. War is god."
No one denies the need for force in a violent world, but the glorification of will in our nation has become a pathology. We all have a right to carry weapons, but we also have a duty to common sense, the common peace, the safety of our fellow citizens and the common environment.
I repeat:
"More than 270 million visitors enter the national parks each year. The probability of becoming a victim of a violent crime there is 1 in 708,333, which is less likely than being struck by lightening over a lifetime, according to a statement by a coalition of park service groups. The national parks continue to be one of the safest places to enjoy a vacation."
So what is the meaning of a gun in the backcountry of YNP? Is it a “tool” for your protection or the narcissistic symbol of a triumphant will?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 28, 2010 - 10:04am PT
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Let's get to the bottom line here:
Armed men: Citizens.
Unarmed men: Subjects (and VICTIMS).
I'd much rather have a gun and never need it, than to need a gun an NOT HAVE ONE TO DEFEND MY FAMILY!
My 2 dogs got old and died only 9 months apart. I haven't been able to bring myself to replace them yet. They were "house dogs" that I didn't let run on the ranch. Never had any hint of trouble while I had them. My male Rottweiler, Adolf, weighed in at 154#, and Krystal, femal Rottweiler at 145#. Friendly and loving dogs, but extremely protective (not aggressive).
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mottaaa
Trad climber
tucson
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Feb 28, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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Having spent the summer hiking the back country in southern AZ and NM with a hotshot crew, I can tell you the dangers are real. On several occassions we had law enforcement snipers watching our backs. COYOTES are dangerous. Ran into illegals also.
A few years ago a bow hunter was shot to death in the Santa Rita mts. south of Tucson for reasons unknown. Probably COYOTES.
Some of you say "don't go into the backcountry unless you're up for it." What the hell does that mean.
Should we leave our public lands to smugglers and drug dealers beacause some of you don't like guns, or should we take them back via an armed presence? The same way we need to take our streets back.
When I climb in Mendoza, I pack heat. When I climb in Cochise, I pack heat.
A friend of mine was charged by a steer in Cochise. He packs heat now.
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mottaaa
Trad climber
tucson
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Feb 28, 2010 - 11:31am PT
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"More than 270 million visitors enter the national parks each year. The probability of becoming a victim of a violent crime there is 1 in 708,333, which is less likely than being struck by lightening over a lifetime, according to a statement by a coalition of park service groups. The national parks continue to be one of the safest places to enjoy a vacation."
so there is a chance of falling victim to violent crime in a NP. Who wants it?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 28, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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Donini is dead on. The bigger the truck tires/gun the smaller the dick. It may not have anything to do with actual appendage size but it is certainly linked directly to the persons self esteem.
I was a karate instructor for about 15 years (4th dan) untill I finaly kicked the habbit after 911 to focus my life more on climbing, music and family. The best tool you have for self defence is you brain. I have not had a real fist fight outside of the ring or dojo since jr high school and am 47 years old. I learned to spot troubble comeing either avoid it or defuse it. Letting your ego get involved will never difuse troubble. I have had a few close calls over the years but never had to restort to real violence. Its good to be prepared but not good to obsess over it.
Rox aparently gets in fights and has brushes with the law. That leads me to believe that he probobly is not good at avoiding troubble.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 28, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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All you guys who think about the size of other guy's dicks, well, you guys can't get married in California until they overturn Prop. 8.
You know who you are.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 28, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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LEB, the fat tires don't work as well as stock truck tire in the snow. been all over the west in a reguler old toyota truck and a ford ranger as well as honds civic and sh#t box rental cars and never had a problem 4 weeling into remote towers. made it into cty Rd 16Z with my honda civic. I got a shitbox chevey rental car into Turro Weep grand caynon 60 miles deep on unmaintained roads. Been a redneck my whole life and done pleanty of 4 wheeling. heck I have even dragged loggs out of the wood with a VW vanagon syncro.. (stock tires) I live 4.5 miles out at the end of a dead end dirt road. Yes it is a fact that the guys who put extra size wheels on their trucks got little dicks ;) Literaly everyone on the planet knows this except for the guys with the tricked out trucks and the little dicks :)
I been in boatloads of nasty biker bars and never had real troubble. sometimes I was packing and sometimes not but if you know how to handle yourself and when its maybe best to lose that game of pool you can usually stay out of troubble.
Yosemite is not a trashy biker bar BTW.
Never been west of RR Nevada but I have kicked arround the rest of the country on pleanty of dirbag low budjet climbing trips and other adventures. I used to duct tape a tarp to the side of my honda civic to make an instant lean too. There have been a few times I wished that I had a gun but I always managed without one.
The year that I lived in WYO I wished that I had a gun because I was real scared of bears but only actually saw one bear that year and that was from the buss.
I admit that I would like the option of haveing a gun in Griz country but much of that is because I am from the east and don't know much about grizzel bars.
Your brain is still the best defence. Beth and Tommy could have easily used their brains to keep them out of troubble in Kyrgyzstan. Guns would not have helped them. In fact they had their kidnappers guns on severl ocasions while crossing rivers and did not make a move because they did not know how the guns worked. Even if they were crack shots they would most likly have been killed or rotted in a central Aisian prison if they had guns. There ain't no Hard cover on a portaledge and the Talibs had what sounds like a draganov sniper rifle.
Mostly its fear. If you have fear you think you need a gun all the time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 28, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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60 miles to Toroweap?
You cheated and went in from Short Creek. Try going over Trumbull.
I'd agree that smarts is better than lead, but I also feel you can work Murphy's Law in reverse;
You won't need it if you DO have it.
And if I'm wrong,.................................................. well then I DO have it!
And really TMC!
How misleading can you BE!!?
I've been offroading since I could steer the Willys from my dad's lap 50 years ago.
I've done hundreds of miles at a single go in solo trips with multiple field repairs.
In 1981 I entered my only national offroad performance rally,.. and took first place.
When people ask me what the best offroad vehicle is I always tell them the same thing;
A RENTAL CAR
IT IS AMAZING WHERE THEY WILL GO!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 28, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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I have rifels and pistols and I have gone through phases of packing heat. INMOP packing heat 24/7 causes many more problems than it solves. There are times and places that packing heat makes sense but they should be few and far between. My home is my castle though. As far as gizzel bar country, I would like to be well heeled up there but a lot of that is my lack of knowlege. If I was with a local who really knew their way arround and said the gun was not needed then I would be ok with that..
I was thinking today about what would be the best gun for liveing in a motorhome full time. One of those Ruger .44mag semi auto carbines might be a good one. Small and compact but has a removeable clip which makes it easy to store unloaded seperate from the ammo and legal but fast to load if troubble comes. You could have secret false compartment just thick enough to hold the gun/ pasport, money. The loaded clip in annother location that you have wired, and only a 10rnd clip. Gun is seperate from ammo in storeage. Origional wood stock, no assult style anti california goodies on there. But if you have to camp in a bad spot its real fast to limber up. BTW this system would be legal in NP under the old system. Stored seperate from the ammo and not in the front passenger compartment. You need to be legal where you came from and legal where your going to.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 28, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
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Ron, last time I saw a picture of your truck it didn't have no 44in monster mudders on it and I bet its seen a heck of a lot more rough country than most of them shiny tricked out small dick city trucks...
Not ddisrespecting Tommy and Beth at all but the smart/brain way out of that situation was to heed the state dept warnings as several other partys did and stay out of the region. The only way guns would be effective in that area at that time would be to have a full team armed to the teeth in which case you would no longer look like tourists and the MI8's would light you up as well as every jittersy army and talib group you ran into. Rox. Useing this incident as an example of why guns are nessicary on roadtrips is perhaps the farthest out there yet.
Just in case you happen to run into bands of Taliban and 3rd world soldiers don't forget to bring your own fire team complete with stinger missels and tac air if you can get it...
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Feb 28, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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hey Paul Roehl-is that quote from Cormac MacCarthy's Blood Meridian?
best book on violence in the west, period.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 28, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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If you want ONE home defense weapon, a 12 ga. pump action shotgun is the answer. These are (1) realtively inexpensive, and (2) scare the sh#t outta any one on the business end, and (3) in a home defense situation, the chance of blowing away someone in the next room is greatly reduced. Would be great for motorhome defense.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 28, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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Yeah I'd go for the 12 bore over a Ruger .44 carbine.
In a trailorhome go for birdshot.
AND MOUNT A LIGHT ON IT!!!
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