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Paulina
Trad climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 09:18am PT
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Interesting thread to read!
To the OP, I'm not sure why you speak of ethics as so intimately tied to ownership. There are plenty of situations in general (and in climbing) that require ethical judgment without any relationship to ownership of anything (e.g., should I attempt to save a drowning person? or some such). But even if you think that ownership is important in determining what you can ethically do with a thing or a resource, it's often not the most important thing. And many ethical questions can be answered without resolving ownership. For example, is it ethical for me to beat and abuse a dog, even if I own it? Does the answer change if I don't own it?
As for your specific argument that any one of us has equal right to do whatever we want because "nobody owns" or equivalently "everybody owns" El Cap, I don't think that flies either. If you and I jointly own a house (or El Cap) is it ethical for me to blow it up without your consent? Presumably, as an equal owner, you would say 'no'. So when a few million people jointly own something, the ethics surrounding what can and can't be done to it have to come in form of a social-contract type of consent (which we hope that our laws reflect, as you point out, but not equivalent to current laws). So figuring out the ethics of climbing (or in any other manner doing something with) a joint resource is not only ok, but in fact a moral imperative --- so we may establish a more perfect social contract.
Makes sense?
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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MB1:
I would not dare to "spew", but you have to deal with something. It is you who is stuck on WOS. Every idea you raise revolves very closely around WOS. It is you who can not leave it alone. I would guess were you to talk about the weather, only a very small number of people would raise WOS. I am sure someone would however.
Let me ask a question. Did you folks come up with the Wings of Steel thing or did someone dump it on you?
If you did originate it, did you not consider the downside of a name like that? How about Schlong of Steel? Do you think that a good name for a route?
Oh yes. Your argument that you represent the "true law" better than does the NPS is really rich. Saturday Night Live stuff.
Now I am going to assume you folks did not modify public property in any way. Under that assumption, other than the really poor name I don't have a problem with what you did.
I also have no problem with no one wanting to do the route. And I don't really care why they don't want to do it. It's a free world. Or at least I think it should be free.
Now if you did modify public property, we have a real problem. But it's a problem involving a lot of people.
The question is, how can we get better? Not perfect. Just better.
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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I cant weigh in on anything done to or in the Valley that many are referring to. I can however say...
That the saddest example of 'artificial difficulty' to me are east coast 'eliminates'. "Yo man that hold is off route" ... for god sakes making the outdoors into a climbing gym sucks. Why couldn't we just have more states like New Hampshire and West Virginia out here.
PS: I believe anyone chipping or gluing anything other than private property is just outside the realm of my understanding.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 18, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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nicely put jstan, thanks.
so there you have it-
post up another thread about, say, hooking technique, or all about how real men take tumbling falls on long slabby aid routes, and we'll all be in the same place.
alternatively if you post up about something having nothing to do w/ that climb of yours, and then if i start in on how WoS is a PoS, you then can say with some credibility that i'm stuck, i'm spewing, and i baffle you, etc.
as yet i don't remember seeing any threads started by you that do not seem to be talking about the samesamesame ol' thing as the last...
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
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"Yo man that hold is off route" Hahahaha too funny. People do this?
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
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"That the saddest example of 'artificial difficulty' to me are east coast 'eliminates'. "Yo man that hold is off route" ... for god sakes making the outdoors into a climbing gym sucks. Why couldn't we just have more states like New Hampshire and West Virginia out here."
Yes and Yes on NH and WV!
Even BITD when a boulder problem was too easy people would suggest eliminates. No hands, whatever. It was fun. No one was compelled to follow suit. And there was no damage. We would accuse the other person of touching the rock with a knee. Arguments when no one cares are great fun.
As for gluing on public property take a look at the recent posts in the southern Yosemite thread. This is the worst treatment of public property I have ever seen. Unparalleled.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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jstan, the subject of artificial difficulty has come up many, many times on the taco, mostly not about WoS, or even Intifada. Some examples I easily found in less than five minutes:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=520429&tn=0
An entire thread on the subject, particularly about what metal to put into drilled holes, given the trade off between wanting to maintain some boldness, while have longevity of drilled placements. THIS point (what metal to put into drilled holes) is the one I find most interesting regarding the topic question.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=447487&msg=448479#msg448479
Dingus posts up, ironically making virtually the same claim I made in the beginning about everything except but "rock, man and rubber" being "artificial." He allowed "rubber," which I do not, but that's a detail.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=447487&msg=447928#msg447928
Bachar posts defending the "artificial" difficulty imposed by the run-outs on the Bachar-Yerin.
In fact, that entire thread sports many, many references to "artificial difficulty" and "contrived difficulty." Hmmm... no mention of the "off limits" climbs there.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=276856&msg=277812#msg277812
More discussion about what to put into drilled holes, with an eye to avoiding "artificial difficulty."
There is more, and even off-taco discussions employ the concept of "artificial difficulty" willy-nilly. I have perpetually found this concept baffling, yet it has often been used as a club (in many contexts, having nothing to do with any climbs of mine, btw).
Sadly, you and Matt both are apparently projecting, as it is demonstrably not the case that "Every idea raise revolves very closely around WoS. It is [me] that cannot leave it alone." The fact is instead the reverse. A few die-hards simply cannot get past WoS enough to engage in non-WoS conversations about norms, tactics, and ethics... if I am in the thread.
I said it at the beginning of this thread, I meant it, and I have now demonstrated it: I'm interested in a general discussion of this concept, because I hear it used quite a lot, and it simply makes no sense to me, particularly when it is pontificated. If you read WoS into that, take a look in the mirror and get over it.
Regarding what you said that was in fact spew, I have addressed all of those WoS issues ad nauseum on other threads. A quick search can find you the answers about our name choice, etc.
And, Matt, your thread-topic suggestions are downright hilarious! Honestly, I laughed out loud. ME put up a thread on hooking technique??? Ha! I would instantly be dog-piled by the critics: "Oh, the mad enhancer is going to tell us about hook-enhancing techniques..." on and on. You should know better by now. You yourself are quick to chime in EVERYWHERE I post to dog me about something and blame it on WoS. If you want, I'll be happy to find and post that evidence also.
But the funniest part to me, reading your WoS tirades, is that you seem to have taken it upon yourself, with a little help from a few, to act as the forum WoS police. "No WoS posting here, folks... just move along!"
Let's say that this thread WAS just a thinly veiled WoS thread. The question I asked is no less interesting, and those that don't find it interesting don't have to attend. You are here, repeatedly. So, either YOU find the question interesting (although, as usual, you don't seem to have anything positive to contribute), or, what your history with me shows as the actual truth is: You are on constant guard for "WoS threads" so that you can hop on and play cop.
So, let's say that I really AM as pathetic as you and a FEW others suggest: I'm just FIXATED on WoS, and EVERYTHING in my universe revolves around it (hahaha, sick, pathalogical laughter). In that case, do you really think that YOU are going to police ME into some sort of reformation?
Come, on, Matt... what do you really think that you are accmomplishing? You're like old folks I've ridden with in the car: "OMG! Martha, do you see how fast he's going??? He's at least six miles over the speed limit! What a crazy guy! We shouldn't have to share the road with the likes of him! If I were a cop, I'd pull him over and give him a good ticket!" On and on.
If I'm NOT fixated, then you're simply (and seemingly pathalogically) misguided in your constant policing efforts. If I AM fixated, then you have no hope of policing me. Are you hoping to "show the world" who and what I really am? Why do you care? Whatever my mental state is regarding WoS, so what?
So, regardless of who and what I am, can we get back to the topic question?
Now, Paulina actually posted something that seems to me both informed and thoughtful! She seemingly has some formal ethical background... a woman after my own heart! On Sunday I'm hoping to reply to that post with the attention it deserves. Good stuff, Paulina!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 18, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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so in the end, this thread was about Wings of Steel, gee, I'm surprised.
I think the I'd draw the line at what is done to the route, rather than what we take up to do the route.
Leaving the route essentially unaltered, in such a state that climbers coming later wouldn't be able to tell if the route has been done or not, is the measure of a "natural" ascent. It doesn't matter if you climb it solo-onsight-nude or if you just use usual methods of ascent.
My point above was that any climb is artificial by the common definition that artificial is an artifice of humans... leaving the other discussion for later...
The extent of altering the natural line of the route is a measure of artificiality, if the alteration is by humans. This would include gardening, cleaning, trundling, brushing, chipping, drilling, fixed gear, etc...
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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I would call attention to the fact Ed gets to the point very quickly with few words.
This used to be called "composition.:"
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Hey Chief, do your homework prior to defending. You appear a fool otherwise regardless of who/what you quote. Clearly, just climbing the route and going about their business was not nearly enough.
Cheers,
Mimi
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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The Chief has a PART of it when he says you need to do what you do
only for yourself.
What's the other PART?
You should NOT do to others what you would NOT have them do to you.
(Hillel about 110BC)
You would not be happy if others completely IGNORED what you value.
You may violate it,
But you may not ignore it.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Hmmmm, Mullet, anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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I don't have a clue about you Chief, but be sure you don't have to lecture anyone on here about life being short or otherwise more important. Especially regarding WOS=POS=WTF threads.
But honestly, aren't you deeply curious about what they were gonna do with 250 bolt hangers?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Build a house?
A very, very small one, maybe.......
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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Mad bolter # 1 what, Jensen is this you?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Chief, why didn't you go for the whole thing since you'd done the crux already?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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That's MimiDude by the way.
Chiefy, you seem like a good kid. If you'd reached for your trusty drill and whooped up an instant BwanaDimple, you'd have been golden. You'd have 'blown right by' until the next zmac. What up?!
Chiefy edit: Ammon was bored to tears and PTPP doesn't count. He failed miserably on TR. Neither of them cheated. That actually matters in this case.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 18, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Read my backedit. I guess you don't care about the 500 copperheads either. We'll never agree. Or the 200 or so pitons on a slab route.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 19, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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"it simply makes no sense to me, particularly when it is pontificated."
I get the sense that we all agree with this above statement despite the way we are speaking about it.
It is in the implementation and action that we find that our artifice and our art is defined, not in the pontification abstractions after the fact.
Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics cf Wikipedia.
Art analysis often, to me, smacks of relativistic evaluation. Are we afraid of ethical relativism in our climbing context?
what is the impact (on others) when we practice one type of artifice vs. another type of artifice?
does ones personal ethics necessitate a change in behavior? i.e. to use a pin or not use a pin when a very highly questionable brassie will fit?
if the question were easy, then we wouldn't ever talk about these types of decisions.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Sep 19, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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You just keep packin' the bag, & shut up.
Or somethin'.
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