Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 03:44am PT
|
Glenn,
> Project Camelot interviews Jane Burgermeister -- a Christian with a Conscience and a very important message for the World concerning Swine Flu and forced Vaccines. She knows what she is talking about. She is a hero:
>...
> http://www.TheFluCase.com
Who is Jane Bürgermeister, and why do you think people should believe the stuff she writes?
About all I can see on her site is that she is a resident of Vienna, Austria.
Have you read some of what she wrote on her site?
Here is part of what she said under the "Baxter/WHO case":
--
Also, I suggest that there are reasonable grounds for believing that Baxter is part of a secret bioweapons programme and that there are plans to release weaponised bird flu on the world’s population soon.
Furthermore, I present evidence to support the notion that Baxter is a smaller entity operating within a bigger aggregate of entities that belong to an international organised crime group, which I maintain can be identified with the group known informally as “The Illuminati”.
I allege there is evidence the US “Illuminati”-controlled government plans to release the bird flu on the US population in the near future, citing bird flu drills, FEMA camps, mass graves among other facts.
--
"The Illuminati" is a phrase commonly used by people who believe in "conspiracy theories". She says it controls the US government....
Is this something you believe too, Glenn?
In my view, this is not credible evidence for making any decision.
I am not saying that a person should or should not take the vaccine (although I have an opinion on it).
But the above "testimony" is valueless - not useful for the decision whether or not to take the vaccine.
|
|
onepitch
Social climber
berkeley CA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 10:46am PT
|
I have to agree with Clint on this one. Please base your health decision on credible infomation.
Since people don't know me (as I primarily lurk around here) - I am a scientist, but I have no love how pharma type companies conduct business. I know people in various governmental organizations (i.e. CDC) and everyone I've met is really doing their best to move the science and health understand forward and create improvements in human health. I can't speak to whether there is some high level conspircy but the data don't seem to point in that direction.
Do we know everything? Absolutely not. Are we (the royal we - this is not my specific field) able to predict long term effects of everything we do or take or treat ourselves with. Absolutely not. I don't usually take flu vaccines, but I have data on my immune system that most people don't have. I can make an informed choice based in fact.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
# 97% of all subtyped influenza A viruses being reported to CDC were 2009 influenza A (H1N1) viruses.
Here's to freedom of INFORMED choice.
Cheers,
Jeremy
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 11:25am PT
|
I don't think you have to have a tin foil hat on to suspect that shooting mercury in your veins, at levels the government considers unsafe, to be a bad thing.
What's up with finding better ways to preserve vaccines?
PEace
Karl
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2009 - 11:32am PT
|
Clint,
Did you watch the interview with Jane done by Project Camelot? She answered all of your questions. Do the homework.
Are there dark secret powers that hide behind legitimate governments? Absolutely. The NWO and their agenda are very real. They have boldly stated their intentions and their agenda. Just look at your dollar bill in your pocket. They don't hide it. All of these power groups have a relationship and have pulled together at some World organized level: the Illuminati, the Tri-lateral Commission, The Bilderburgs, The Rothchilds, the Masons, the UN and the WHO and the list goes on and on. Yes, it is all heading toward a NWO. All of our Presidents perhaps since Bush 1 have used this terminology, "NWO" to some degree in their speeches, even including President Obama, unfortunatley. Youtube it and see for yourself.
These are people of power, influencce and big money. They are also in control of the World's money and finance. If you don't know this then you haven't been paying attention and doing your homework.
You do know that the Federal Reserve is not a part of our Government, but private don't you? Many of these groups are heavily into the occult. Many of these power players get together at Bohemian Grove in CA every year and do their ritual burning of "Care" which is completely dark occult and Satanic.
With the Georgia Stones in the 70s they stated their intentions for all the World to know and built a monument to withstand severe cataclism just in case. They put out their evil agenda in many World languages so there are no misunderstandings. That was done with direct purpose and intention, in relative secret, they will not say who did it, and at considerable cost.
American Stonehenge: Monumental Instructions for the Post-Apocalypse
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/ff_guidestones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
Many people who know all of this think the NWO is stepping up their efforts. I think so too. People are waking up. They can't have that. They prefer people to be complacent and asleep. They have a bizarre sense of right and wrong. They will tell you that they want to kill you before they do so. Some how this clears their sick conscience and makes it all ok.
As a Christian I know the writing on the wall. I also know in the end God wins and those with him. He fore-told it all and let us know this would happen, and to be ready and to be prepared. You can only be ready and prepared with God, not without him. He loves us and he wants us to know. This spiritual battle between God, his Army of Holy Angels with him, and Lucifer and Lucifer's Fallen Angels has been going on for a very long time, and unfortunatley we are caught in the middle. It will get darker before the light. We are living in that time. Jesus Christ, Yeshua, Emmanuel, God with Us, told us all about these things and the end times and to be ready. Read the New Testiment of the Bible. Jesus goes into great detail about the end times, our time. Read the book of Revelation.
As the good book says . . .
Eph.6:12 (KJV)
"[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
If you want to know all about the fall of Lucifer and his Angels and what their intentions are and what they can do, and what they have been doing to screw up our lives here on Earth then read the book of Enoch. Interesting how the book of Enoch is not considered "Canon." Yet the book of Genesis talks about the very same issues, as well as the book of Revelations. We learn that Enoch walked with God, and the prohets of old, and Jesus, and his Apostles all read and quoted from the book of Enoch. A great book to read that includes the book of Enoch is: "Fallen Angels and the Origins of Evil: Why Church Fathers Suppressed the Book of Enoch and Its Startling Revelations" by Elizabeth Clare Prophet.
I will not take this vaccine. They have lost my trust.
|
|
johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
|
Wow!
And I thought things were wacked back in my universe.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
|
Timid TopRope says he's delusional.
Anyways I don't know sh'it and did a quick Google search and on the first page hit saw this.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/09/08/Another-Shocking-Warning-About-Swine-Flu-Vaccine.aspx
This was one interesting excerpt from the page.
_
All truth passes through 3 stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed
Third, it is accepted as self evident
This famous quote by Arthur Schopenhauer is one of my favorites, and is, I believe, how history will in the end view the issue of vaccines.
"Right now, we are in the second stage, and you can see that by statements such as the one made by the chief medical editor at NBC News, Dr. Nancy Snyderman, who is quoted as saying that “people should reject conspiracy theories about the vaccine’s safety, trust the government, and get your damn vaccine.”
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
|
Mr. Klimmer will need to consult with his alien friends in the spaceship on the far side of the moon, and possibly the lone gunman on the grassy knoll in Area 51, before getting back to you. :-)
|
|
WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
|
All truth passes through 3 stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed
Third, it is accepted as self evident
What are the stages of lies, delusions, and paranoia?
|
|
rockermike
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
|
I love these discussions; I'd say some of us are definitely at the ridicule stage.
I'm ultimately agnostic about the whole issue (grand conspiracies especially) but I find it fascinating. And I somehow love reading the illumnati NWO stuff. Perhaps I have a bit of a paranoia genetic make up too.
If you're not familiar with the storyline do a little searching and reading. There are actually a large and growing segment of the US population who interpret reality through this lens. Evil, one government people taking over. The one government people taking over certainly is true. As Klimmer points out they have announced their intentions publicly over and over; the "New World Order" is their phrase. But are they evil? I can't say. Maybe benign dictators. Maybe reptilian cannibals. ha
In any case I'll put my faith in God's love and his sovereignty. In the end Evil can never win.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
|
In the end Evil can never win.
Have you met FatTrad yet?
|
|
rockermike
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:30pm PT
|
I said "in the end"; I didn't say there wouldn't be few unpleasant bumps along the road. :)
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
|
There is quite a lot of literature on conspiracy theory and what needs it fulfills for the people who believe. Lots of interesting stuff has been written in history, psychology and sociology journals (also lots of psycho-babble in my personal opinion). These "grand conspiracy" theories, where secret societies of people are acting to control all human activities for their own evil purposes, are relatively new (last century or so). Of course I guess it is possible to interpret that as they have only existed for that long, not that it is a newish form of mass paranoia.
It is at least as interesting as your average ST OT post to read the things out there when you google up a bunch of stuff on "conspiracy theories, who believes in them?"
|
|
elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
|
When irrational people, who base their lives on ancient texts and require no proof but "faith" tell me what I should or shouldn't do or believe, then I just shake my head and laugh. The religious have always tried to make science and technological progress the work of the devil. I suppose because science, logic and reason have shown religion to be the preposterous sham that it is.
|
|
Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
|
Conspiracies aside, I say follow the money. That is usually the big motivator in these issues. It would not be good business sense for pharm. corps. to cure anything or make people healthy. It would adversely modify their profit schemes.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
|
I think at the rate viruses mutate, the pharmaceutical companies are not going to run out of business any time soon.
|
|
elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
|
Wayno ..Does it make more sense to let all your consumers die off? We know that disease is adaptable and that there will always be diseases to fight... the war is never won.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
|
Glenn,
> Did you watch the interview with Jane done by Project Camelot? She answered all of your questions. Do the homework.
Uh, I'm not ready to invest 54 minutes to watch that full video.
I do see in the comments that she is called a "medical editor".
Thanks for answering my questions about your views of "The Illuminati", etc.
It's (slightly) interesting to me why people choose to believe in conspiracies based on what are in my judgment very flimsy claims.
In this instance and others, it shows a lack of respect for the people with actual expertise, and who are working hard on these issues. Maybe the best example was when a moon landing conspiracy guy told Buzz Aldrin he was a liar about landing on the moon, and Buzz punched him. It was a lack of respect - Aldrin devoted years of his life to his career, and risked his life on the mission. (Although in Glenn's case, I recall he does not believe there was a moon landing conspiracy).
I guess people make a choice based on their feelings, of whether some world event is driven by a conspiracy. And these days on the internet, you can always find at least a few people who have written up a lot of claims to support such a conspiracy.
It's beyond a healthy skepticism, though. Skepticism says "It might be true, but I haven't been convinced" or "I don't believe it". With a conspiracy theory, you are saying "it is false, and here is the real truth". The problem is that you are not being sufficiently skeptical about your proposed alternative truth.
Tami has a reasonable point about what qualifies as "credible" evidence. It's a judgement call at some level, but usually if it is testimony, the person should have some expertise in the area or at least solid knowledge of the facts. And it helps if they have an unbiased viewpoint, too. If they are just presenting data which we are capable of interpreting, then it helps to have citations for the original sources of data.
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
|
She attended Edinburgh University but does not mention a degree. She studied English Lit, language, and "a bit of philosophy." Then she worked as an editor for a medical journal, but quit "of her own free will." She started writing for medical and scientific journals, rattles off an impressive list, but no article titles. I would like to see a list of published articles, even one article published in a reputable journal. From this writing experience she gained an understanding of the medical field! So she's an authority on the medical field. Then she heard about the contamination of some "bird flu" at Baxter (a laboratory?). She concludes that this was deliberate because it is a level 3 facility, so it could not have been an accident.
The whole interview goes on like this. One unsupported conclusion after another. Why would anyone accept this as fact?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!