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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2009 - 02:31am PT
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I wonder if the NPS keeps any information on this? At least, what is spent in each park for garbage removal, toilets and related things - perhaps factoring in the area of the park, number of visitors/year, etc. If there was some way of limiting the information, e.g. to areas on or within 100 m of a road, then it might get more useful.
Probably the tiny historic national parks, near large urban centres, are nominally most in need of cleaning. But the comparison doesn't seem very valid.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 15, 2009 - 03:13am PT
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hey there chicken skinner and all... say,
three cheers and more for ol' chappy's mom... our MOM!
now that's she's 80, she doesn't get out and walk much, but:
all her years, up 'til now---meaning in her late 70's to that 80, she'd
PICK UP TRASH from along the roads, WHEREVER she hiked...
*she taught me well too... and i am passing this on to the grandkids---the ones that are with me the most, are the only ones that are learning, though (and i make sure they know it came from great gramma) ;)
well---not only did our MOM do this (and at first my kids teased her, cause my NOW EX had teased her) (though i rebuked them)...
well, as i was starting to say, not only did our mom do this, picking-up-other-folks-litter-bit, BUT:
her sister (all the way up til she died--by falling through the ice :( ...) well, she did the very same thing....
*she also worked for the cleveland museum of natural history and loved and respected nature and all the critters, too...
*say---it appears "trash or untrash", whichever the SYSTEM, seems to run in the family....
*course, i don't SEE all my brothers now, or sis, but for the most part, they've done well to look after these ways----course one has a might-messy room, and lots of laundry, ;) ... (perhaps cause its all in the room, and not on the street? oh my)...
well, dear MOM, i know you don't read online stuff...
but three cheers for you:
you did well.... :)
*yep, ken, even when visiting lynda and yosemite, she was picking up trash... :)
that's our mom----a different kind of bag-lady, walking the roadsides....
(always worried and hoping no car would hit her, or her sis)...
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10b4me
Gym climber
Happy Boulders
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Aug 16, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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I think its mans/womans inherent feeling that if there isn't a trashcan nearby, they're not going to look for one. in other words,
it's laziness; and it's not there place to pick up someone else's trash
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jstan
climber
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Aug 16, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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If you remember back to the day when you first left the trees and moved on to the savannahs, your survival strategy was the ability to travel long distances, erect. We became backpackers because we had to carry our necessities with us.
Tell me when you are hiking you do not look forward to finishing the use of an item so you will no longer have to carry it. Go ahead. Over the last couple of million years you even developed a ritual for expressing your pleasure at no longer having to carry that item. You began throwing it away. Not just dropping it. You give it the old toss.
So it is we speak of "throwing things away."
A people who are removed from this life style by only a few hundred years, instead of several thousand years of settled life like some of us, are much more attuned to "throwing things away" immediately as it becomes possible.
For we settled people we now have "garage sales."
In those we even take pleasure in getting back 5 cents for something for which we paid a dollar.
If that ain't twisted pleasure, I don't know what is.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 16, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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Just checking in to say how out of touch with reality most of you are.
Went to Eldo this morning: basically spotless as usual.
US Parks (as managed by fed, state, or local authorities) are generally incredibly clean, at least here in CO. (Anyone who says RMNP is dirty is full of Sh*t--I'll go up and look if you want to challenge me, and take pictures.)
I know lots of you have been to 3rd world countries: are you just in denial, or is there some crazy psychology at work that makes you say US parks are somehow full of litter compared to rest of world.
They're not. You know it, or you should. Wise up or grow up.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 16, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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Just checking in to say I heartily agree it is really important it is for us to help
keep our areas clean. Colorado, in such places as Eldorado, does a superb job
but if I were doing that work for the state I myself would get discouraged were
no one else to pitch in.
By supporting the effort enthusiastically we surely get many different kinds of
support in return.
It's a roll.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Aug 16, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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On the otherhand - if the human race did not have a propensity for littering...
We wouldn't have archeology.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 16, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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These damn realists.
All kinds of history along Route 120.
Jingy found part of a motorcycle.
We never did locate the body.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 17, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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jstan--you are right. I was self righteousness in my post and lost sight of the big picture: we should all do our part to reduce trash, including educating the less enlightened. I'll try to do that out in the field and keep my self-righteousness limited to the Internet.
I just got peeved when the posts made it sound like US parks are a trash dump, and as someone who gets out on a regular basis (in Colo. Front Range), I just don't see that, thank God. I see climbers--with few exceptions--as a positive force in this regard, and even Ma/Pa/Jr. are coming around. We should all try to keep up the good work and improve.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 17, 2009 - 02:25am PT
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Well, we just had the Squamish Mountain Festival, which was lots of fun. Yesterday was the Adopt-a-Crag. About 20 people worked on trails in Cheakamus Canyon, north of Squamish, including a distinguished guest. I couldn't get away until later, and so I put my 'loaner' litter stick to good use, and did some cleanup on the west side of the south summit of the Chief. It's where most of the hikers go - fairly slabby on the west side, with steeper bits. The photo shows the haul, after stuff was rinsed off. About 60 containers, mostly pop, water and beer bottles and cans. Plus another two bags of 'real' garbage, but I didn't want to mess up CMac's website with photos.
Garbage vincit omnia, or at least is everywhere to be found.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 17, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Anders' picture leaves me envious and speechless. So I will recount a joke being
told by people who have nothing in common with climbers.
A man walks into a restaurant with a full-grown ostrich behind him. The
waitress asks them for their orders.
The man says, 'A hamburger, fries and a coke,' and turns to the ostrich, 'What's
yours?'
'I'll have the same,' says the ostrich.
A short time later the waitress returns with the order 'That will be $9.40
please,' and the man reaches into his pocket and pulls out the exact change for
payment.
The next day, the man and the ostrich come again and the man says, 'A
hamburger, fries and a coke.'
The ostrich says, 'I'll have the same.'
Again the man reaches into his pocket and pays with exact change.
This becomes routine until the two enter again. 'The usual?' asks the waitress.
'No, this is Friday night, so I will have a steak, baked potato and a salad,' says
the man.
'Same,' says the ostrich.
Shortly the waitress brings the order and says, 'That will be $32.62.'
Once again the man pulls the exact change out of his pocket and places it on
the table...
The waitress cannot hold back her curiosity any longer. 'Excuse me, sir. How
do you manage to always come up with the exact change in your pocket every
time?'
'Well,' says the man, 'several years ago I was cleaning the attic and found an
old lamp. When I rubbed it, a Genie appeared and offered me two wishes. My
first wish was that if I ever had to pay for anything, I would just put my hand in
my pocket and the right amount of money would always be there.'
'That's brilliant!' says the waitress. 'Most people would ask for a million dollars
or something, but you'll always be as rich as you want for as long as you live!'
'That's right. Whether it's a gallon of milk or a Rolls Royce, the exact money is
always there,' says the man..
The waitress asks, 'What's with the ostrich?'
The man sighs, pauses and answers, 'My second wish was for a tall chick with
a big ass and long legs who agrees with everything I say.'
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 18, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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Well, I can't top jstan's ostrich joke. Maybe it should also be posted to zip's 'girlfriend' thread.
One interesting thing I've noticed about all the bottles and things that I find. Most are empty, and almost all have the cap on. Which means the person discarding it finishes the drink, puts the cap back on, and then drops or tosses it. The psychology seems a bit odd.
The psychology of throwing it over an edge, or a metre or two off the trail - out of sight, out of mind - is understandable. But replacing the cap first?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 18, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Let me try.
When you put the cap back on and squeeze the bottle it feels as though it were still full. When you now toss it with the cap on you are tossing a "full" bottle.
So you are getting rid of a lot of weight.
The question is, do people squeeze the bottles before tossing them?
In order to put the cap on tightly you have to squeeze them.
So that means we have confirmation of this hypothesis to the extent we find the caps are tight.
A facelift study!
Edit:
If the broken window theory is correct then during Facelift one is advised to make sure the people coming in with the heavy traffic stream on 120 see no litter once past the park's entry.
I have concentrated on 120, but not for that reason. I subscribe to the "Nobody cares so why should I?" theory. Two often I have seen apparently ownerless structures completely trashed in one go. Including the toilets being broken up with a hammer. According to this theory people coming into the park are influenced when they see people cleaning up. Some one cares.
But I think I have a level of data supporting this hypothesis gained at my first Facelift after getting off the train in Merced. I got lost while walking to a motel and a kind lady took a chance and gave me a ride part way. When told about Facelift she almost started cheering about what climbers were doing. There are a lot of people out there who care but may be discouraged thinking they are in the minority. When we are out there visibly doing something we do TWO things. We encourage those who care. AND we inform those who may not realize people do care.
This approach is double acting and works to shift the center of mass.
The nobody cares theory seems a negative theory based upon "we can't do anything" and lets the one person who throws trash dictate our attitudes.
NO WAY
This battle will require the same frame of mind it takes to do a very hard climb whose difficulty never lets up. It is not hard to muster this level of persistence and determination. Because once you have succeeded you will know something pretty special and unforgettable has been done.
When our country's center of mass on litter has been shifted no one will doubt the effort was well spent.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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Y'all should check out Jamaica Bay and Gateway National Recreation area. NYC, y'all.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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So far we have had mentioned, the Smokey Mountains, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Zion and Gateway National Recreational Area. RMNP was mentioned too but apparently it is in pretty good shape. Any others?
Ken
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 22, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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Skinner..visted Grand Tetons NP beautiful...however all their camp sites are first come first served and the people who were checking people in were knew their stuff...stayed a week, watched people come and go...park was very clean...people were from all over except really no buses. Maybe the really transient group leave the crap cause they are gone in an hour or so...It was a very well run park...from showers to fishing license to climbing...ah the granite on the tetons...damn that is good stuff...can't buy the stuff anywhere...Yosemite just is a traffic jam...even on a Wednesday Cathedral had several parties stacked up....ok I am done now
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Aug 24, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Luggi, I must respectfully disagree with your observation of the Tetons. I just got back after spending an entire week in the backcountry there and it is the dirtiest backcountry I have been in with the exception of microtrash in Yosemite.
The wife and I were just amazed and disgusted with the volume of trash. I am a trash collector when out, and I would be proud to say I came back with the same weight in my pack than when I went out. But I cannot, but this time it was very close. Just a couple of the most obvious and laziest things that I took time to document.
This was a summit along the trail that i took time to run up whild the wife sat in the saddle and took on a couple calories and ozs. of water. Yes, that is the wrapper of a cliff bar. You know, the fashionable calorie intake of all men strong in the hills. Pigs are among us as mountaineers. That was the summit Cairn that was steep off both sides to no end, and two days from any trailhead, so gumby was not the culprit.
Exhibit B is this little gem.
It was the remnants of a very cheap tent left behind, probably so the poor worn out hiker did not have to lug it downhill to his car on the last day of the trip. Neatly packaged, rolled and set near the trail. Too bad it was in the hills since last year at least. My wife forbid me to take it out with me. She said it was obviously a source of fibers for many of the local rodents, and if I acquired parasites from carrying it that I would get no, well you know, even I have priorities.
If I had a garbage bag it would have been the second largest piece of recovered trash from our pristine park's backcountry.
The next most disgusting thing was the sheer volume of toilet paper left behind by the squatting variety of pigs. Most of it hadn't even a hint of trying to hide it. Sure, some was jammed in cracks of rocks, bark cracks, but most of it was left lie where it fell, you know right behind the rock, bush, log,etc.. I ran out of baggies to store this wonderfull bounty of smut. I will not pick it up bare handed, nor touch it if chunky. Just bury it where she lay, if you will.
I had an off duty backcountry ranger and his brother over for Spaghetti night on the second night out and he caught me picking up all the micro crap, and it spurred a conversation of the disgusting part of the human race we had all encountered, and his was to top all. The summit of Tewinot has a survey marker with the elevation, name, and all other pertinent data clearly inscribed. Some great thinking mountaineering buthead felt the need to make sure that his photo was clear so he took his Magic Marksalot, indelable/unerasable marker and wrote the elevation on the rock, right next to the marker, probably so it would show in the photo he needed for his ego collection. This was not a touron of the normal variety, but one of our more enthusiastic people of our fine planet. I am sure this may make the lazy theory a little harder to swallow.
So when I returned to civilized living on saturday, and went to the backcountry desk, to let em in on the tent left behind secret, they were not at all alarmed or unaware of the volume of filth. They just said it will make it down by the hand of some kind soul, and took no note of my description of where it was, like they were not even going to let the next hiking by employee know. It appeared to both my wife and I that there was no interest in getting it picked up by the Park Service. Sad days indeed, when the stewards in charge of our gems do not even want to help take care.
Rant over, maybe a TR to follow, but no technical climbing was encountered on this geourgous trip, more of a photo expedition in pursuit of the Tetons true beauty,(maybe a little approach recon), and a great decompressing after my first semester back in school after 20 years off.
Bob
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 24, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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Bob...bummer...I saw stuff too...just not as much as places like Yosemite...I hope you had a great trip though..beautiful place
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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Any others?
Ken
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