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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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It won't be long until we all report to God's big desk (metaphorically speaking) so get yer homework done before then...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Sometimes "bad blood" exists between people striving for different visions of the greater good. Often it is a private matter.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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For those who haven't read my shield trip report, here's an example of climbing being the method of healing bad blood rather than instigating it.
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/ElCapShield.html
I'm happy to see so many feeling there isn't much bad blood around these days. Things used to be rougher and I'm still hearing stories about folks not speaking over a bolt drilled or a stolen route, so I'm glad we're talking about this now.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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Are you sure that the people involved in those stories of bad blood are glad that you are talking about it?
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Wings of Steel
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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(Hartouni photo)
Namaste, y'all!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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Sounds good and all... But, seriously, what wrong with gloves in the lot? Camp 4 style. No one can call the tools then, you can still dish out an ass beating, or receive one... Seems to me that a lack of accountability for one's actions is running rampant in this country today.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
slowly dying in the OC
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Wings of Steel?
So what!
In the grand scheme of things, I'd like to think that the "brotherhood of the rope" is stronger than our differences. Despite all our arguments about politics, religion, or even the important things like climbing style or ethics, our common bond is that rope and our mutual love the sport.
I am happy to say that I bear no one, and I do mean not one single solitary person, in this sport any ill will. Tradsters, pad people, mad bolters, happy bolters, alpinists, noobs, gumbie, plastic pullers - I really don't care. What matters to me is that when I meet one of us, anywhere in the world, we have a point where the fabric of our lives is interwoven. We have a common language. I'd like to hope that we can leverage our commonality to find a bit of peace in this hectic reality.
I for one, am happy to call each of you my brother (or sister if you are female or climb on the Apron too much).
Sure, we get mad at our family members from time to time, but it doesn't mean we love each other any less.
It's late Friday afternoon. Barbarian is signing off. Climb safe.
Peace.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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"Are you sure that the people involved in those stories of bad blood are glad that you are talking about it?"
Who are you addressing Melissa? Most everything in this thread so far has been in very general terms and I don't see a lot of personal stuff revealed above.
If somebody choses to post their personal stuff, hopefully they will use their best judgement about what to say and not say and whether to use names.
Sweeping the general issue under the rug would be repugnant to me.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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Being a very private person about certain things, I thought that generally talking on Supertopo about an issue with respect to a specific recently deceased person might be hurtful to some of the mourners with whom the issue specifically arose.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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I don't think we are talking about John specifically (although a number of close mourners publicly spoke regarding his famous rough edges during his youth during his memorial)
I was just reminded by so many people from that time period how much rivalry and disputes polluted relationships and how positive the outcomes were when people got over it.
The history of climbing is full of bad blood and sometimes we get over it. Friction between folks like Robbins and Harding are infamous but bridges get built in many case. Let's keep building them.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 31, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Yeah, I thought we were addressing the wider picture, here.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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The problem I have is that all "bad blood" is not created equal. In one case you have disagreements between climbers or groups of climbers on styles or ethics. In a second case you have some sort of disagreement between a specific climber or climbers based on something that happened before, during or after a climb.
I think it is a lot easier to forgive and forget the first example, especially if you aren't planning on climbing with that person or group of persons.
The second case is much more difficult to resolve as there are major trust issues involved in roping up with someone. When I climb with someone, I need to feel that they respect me enough as a person that if we get into a tight spot they will do whatever they can to get us out. That may be as easy as working together as a team to jointly figure out a plan of action or it might be as difficult as them putting their own life in danger to save mine.
If I get into a situation on a climb and because of how the situation was resolved (or not resolved) I feel that I cannot trust the climber to look out for me then I don't think that there can be healing unless the other climber acknowledges their actions and how they can be modified to result in a positive outcome. The key here is to have an open dialogue between the climbers with everyone owning up to their actions.
Luckily, in my 35 years of climbing this situation has only happened once to me.
Bruce
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
nowhere, I'm headed for certain doom
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I like wolves. Met one.
He just passed on by, a king in the forest.
Whoa.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Bad blood exists for a reason... some guys are just terminal a-holes.
Why would I or anyone else attempt to embrace that, on a death bed or otherwise?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
the ground up
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I appreciated firsthand how he was a model-citizen of the taco , but I find genius in the brash and 'punching people' Bachar (of the past albeit) , not so much the sugar coated post mortem .
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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i think it would be great to all have a "healing" get togather and take turns punching Rokjox in the face repeatenly. First make him take his glasses off and lay his cane down.
Then we could hug him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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I don't want this thread to be about John, but wanted to address this post
"I appreciated firsthand how he was a model-citizen of the taco , but I find genius in the brash and 'punching people' Bachar (of the past albeit) , not so much the sugar coated post mortem ."
The young john was genius but it wasn't in his brashness. Yes, he was sanitized a bit post-mortem but everybody is.
In the end, John Bachar stood tall on his own rather than on the backs of anybody else. That doesn't mean he sugar coated himself a bit. That was a fine human accomplishment that I respect deeply.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Bruce
I think "trust" and "bad blood" are two different issues. We don't have to keep climbing (or stay married) to somebody to forgive them or erase bad blood.
We all have our selfish natures and there is a limit to the extent we can trust anyone, even ourselves. I have some great friends that would drive 500 miles to help me out in a pinch but might not follow through on our plans if they are having a bad day. I accept their limitations and plan around that, and they accept mine.
Good to ask yourself, however stinging a bolt, or a stolen route, or a personal slight or any of that human weakness stuff might feel, if that former friend were to become lost forever (or until we join them) would the source of the bad blood still seem so important?
[/Bruce]
We're all human. It's ironic that (not talking about anybody here) that a guy who might feel totally cheated and wronged if his woman were to be unfaithful, might be easily tempted under the wrong circumstances to do the same.
My Feeling, whatever standard of judgement we apply to others, we better be willing to live that our ourselves and not just in the realms of life where we feel strong.
Peace
Karl
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