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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 23, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
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Mick, I think the issue will always be a test of whether the NPS should have known the effects of their actions.
In the little reading I have done about the case, it sounds like the excessive amount of water might have caused the rock to break up and fall. But even if that is established, there is still a long link to establishing that the effects should have been known. Even if the NPS ignored technical data that said the location and operation of the bathrooms might not be right, it is still a long stretch to "the rocks will fall."
Unless an action is premeditated with intent to harm or grossly negligent with a known risk, we accept that the mountains are dangerous. I think that what troubles some of us is that we all accept that climbing is dangerous--that includes equipment that we use, how we use it, the partners we pick, the weather, the chance of rock fall, etc--and, we don't want the government to feel obligated to make them safe for us.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 23, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
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Jaun, the only easily found information that I read was in the article published in either 'Rock and Ice' or 'Climbing.' There was a paper presented at a conference in Colorado--I think--but it was not available online. The amounts of water that are asserted to have been concentrated into a small area sound fairly large.
According to the article, the tip off to the researchers that the sewage treatment was linked to the rock fall was the smell of sewage at the point where the rock came off.
All of this has to be proved one way or the other. But it is not a given that it is not related--there is strong evidence that the sewage treatment and the rockfall are connected.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
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Don't think they can close the valley to climbing? Ask the hang gliders and base jumpers. They've tossed or severly regulated groups before. This would be the perfect excuse to toss us right out. Never mind that this will impact other areas - Lee Vining ice comes to mind, same w/ Owens.
I personally think that even if the sewage system caused the slide, they have no suit. Climbing is dangerous. If you get killed, it's your own fault.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Aug 23, 2005 - 05:13pm PT
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Is not the area in question covered in snow 4 or 5 months a year?
Surely this produces some little water itself.
JL
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 23, 2005 - 05:50pm PT
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This is what I could dig up about it in early July.
"All I have read is what is published in Climbing, July 2005, pages 35-37. The research is from Skip Watts and a graduate student Dan Gilliam. There is a reference to a paper given by Watts and Gilliam in 1999 to the Association of Engineering Geologists in Salt Lake City. I could not find it on line.
"According to Climbing, the NPS disputed the findings of the paper based on changes in the bathroom location prior to 1999.
"But, if I am reading it right, since that time, the parents of the climber who was killer have received information (FOIA) that show that water--up to 150,000 gallons flowed into Glacier Point a watershed outside of Glacier Point in the weeks just before the November 1998 rock fall. I do not have the chronology down, but apparently the November 1988 slides were the first of several that included the one that killed the climber on 13 June 1999.
"Aside from the interest in the science in the water pressure and its effects on the rockslides, I hope that the Federal Judge does not find the NPS negligent--it could be the end to climbing freedom in the Valley."
The article in "Climbing" is worth reading.
Best, Roger
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Aug 23, 2005 - 05:54pm PT
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Excuse my ignorance but why could the leach fields not have been located in the opposite direction?
I'm quite at a loss to understand why the leach field was ever directed to a face which has a "village" underneath.
Who knew that there was sufficient fractures and underground fissures to absorb all the sewage?
Even if there was never any thought given to rockfall I would have thought that just for the shear fact that humans are running around Curry Village someone might have thought the sewage may eventually affect that area. Its too big of a risk to take just to let it drain away without some research into its effect. What would have been the outcome I wonder if there had been no fractures and sewage just poured over the Apron?
Please someone put me right.
H.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 05:59pm PT
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Ahem. The study makes a few bogus assumptions (http://www.radford.edu/~cwatts/yosemite/).
"Assuming that after the long drive, everyone uses the restroom at least once" - Totally bogus assumption. If 50 people are lined up, do you wait in line, or go find a tree?
1) Men don't flush urinals every time.
2) Assuming 10 toilets (I can't remember how many are up there), each toilet is flushed 500 times / day. Given a 12 hour window when people are there (let's say 7AM-7PM), that's 41 flushes / hour. Now, that gives each person only 1.45mins to get in, pee, poop, wipe, flush, and get out at a constant rate - given a line of people all day for 12 hours. That is way more peeing, pooping, and flushing than GP ever sees.
The other assumption is that "5000 gals/day" (whatever it is), is likely to make statistically significant change 1/4 mile away. Shouldn't there be some kind of flow model for us to see? How much water is dissipated as it travels? What's the probability that this septic water made it to the flakes the fell off?
T
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 06:22pm PT
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I think the experiment needs to be repeated a few times to see if the tiles fall off again?
What volume of water in cubic ft per day?
Is not the granite of glacier point highly fractured?
I would think that if one goes down 100 ft the water will not freeze.
Would the sh#t not increase the friction?
Would the sh#t not bind the granite together like a glue?
You call Geology a science?
God help the NPS when Lost Arrow goes. Have they not been warned about its danger!
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 06:34pm PT
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WATER QUANTITY CONVERSIONS
Acre-feet x 43560= cubic feet
Acre-feet x 1613.3= cubic yards
Acre Feet x 325851= gallons
Acre-feet/day x 0.5= acre-inches/hour
Acre-feet/day x 226.3= gallons/minute
Acre-feet/day x 0.3259= million gallons/day
Cubic feet x 1728= cubic inches
Cubic feet x 0.03704= cubic yards
Cubic feet x 7.481= gallons
Cubic feet/second x 449= gallons/minute
Cubic feet/second x 38.4= Colorado miners' inches
Cubic feet/second x 0.02832= cubic meters/second
Feet of water x .0295= atmospheres
Feet of water x 62.43= pounds/square foot
Feet of water x .4335= pounds/square inch
Gallons x .1337= cubic feet
Gallons x 3.785= liters
Gallons of water x 8.33= pounds of water
Liters x 61.02= cubic inches
Liters x .001= cubic meters
Liters x .001308 = cubic yards
Liters x .2642 = gallons
5000 gallons = 668 ft^3
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 06:38pm PT
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Location of Bear 46 in the weeks before the massive slide?
Juan
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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Aug 23, 2005 - 06:48pm PT
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Peter Terbrush was a buddy of mine. We went to college together at Western State in Colorado...while not my best friend, he was a friend. We had shared pitches, bowls, crash pads and many a good time.
Peter was not some noobie fool, he was a psyched young climber. I would say more psyched than 85% of the people I meet to this day.
Kerry Pile, the climber he saved by holding the rope during the rockfall, also a friend.
I have met both of his parents, shared tears at his memorial with both of them...imho, they are not money grubbing sue happy people... I don't even think that the money would alter their lifestyles. I would think the true purpose of the suit is more to address the impending MUCH larger slide that the Glacier has in store for them. What happens when Curry Village gets taken out? Who calls foul then?
Well my .02 cents...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 06:56pm PT
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I think the NPS should hand out warning flyers to all entering Yosemite warning about the severe rockfall danger.
Its really not safe for anyone in that valley.
Juan
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 07:18pm PT
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BrentA -
I don't think we were calling into question the experience of Peter or Kerry, most of us on this forum have climbed on the Apron and knew, immediately, where this all happened. One of my first thoughts was, "wow, I've climbed over there before" thinking how unlucky it was that some fellow climbers were involved in the accident. That day I was in the Valley climbing E.Butt. of Middle Cathedral, compeletely unaware of what was happening in the eastern end. If I remember it correctly, it was a glorious day to climb. Who knows, I could have been me over there.
People who regularly climb in the Valley know the place is falling down. Curry Village, as I said above, is built on the rubble that has fallen down from Glacier Point. Most climbs are approached up scree, guess what, that is stuff that has fallen down.
I believe that the trial will probably address the issue of NPS responsibility for creating a hazardous condition, but I think that if the Valley was absent of the NPS it would still be hazardous, as climbers we know this, we have seen it, we have lived it. We climb anyway, it is our choice.
Perhaps we treat the consequences of this choice too lightly, that loved ones, and friends and communities may be devistated by our loss due to our desire to climb. That is the issue here, the courts can decide what role the NPS played, if any.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 07:34pm PT
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If the family is concerned about the safety of Curry Village because of the "big one" (whatever that means) why are they seeking 10M and not the removal of the bathrooms?
As well, do they seem to care that this might result in some form of climbing ban in the Valley?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 07:38pm PT
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So did the sewage lubricate a glide plane.
Juan
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Gene
climber
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Aug 23, 2005 - 08:08pm PT
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Assuming for the sake of discussion that the septic system was a contributing factor in Peter’s death, can we not say that it only accelerated and not “caused” the inevitable and on-going rock falls from GP? There was a big one that came off of MC a few years ago. Its cause, I assume, was 100% “natural.” No compensation due if one got killed there? There have been a few deaths in Yosemite due to rock fall. Even more due to loose rock. GP has been well known and well publicized as a bowling alley for a long time. What, as climbers, do we have a right to expect of the stability of what we make a decision to play on?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Aug 23, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
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Could we not let a fluid glue perculate down the cracks and anchor the rocks?
Then reinstall the crapper?
Juan
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 23, 2005 - 10:05pm PT
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Will someone please put up a new route on the GPA and call it "The Poop Chute" It doesn't even have to be a good route.
But seriously, the law suits are a frightening thing for access issues. It would be foolish to say that Peter Terbrush was not aware of the risk he was exposing himself to. And it may also be unfair to criticize his parents, to call them "selfish" or anything like that, I'm sure they know more than we do and may be motivated to simply address the cause (real or perceived) of the rockfall to protect others. What frightens me is what can happen when some desk jockey in the government somewhere who doesn't know the first thing about climbing or risk or Yosemite decides that the government can't be exposed to the financial risk of climbers suing the NPS when they get hurt in the park. There is no difference between GP and El Cap or Half Dome or The Rostrum or even Cookie to these people. It isn't the lawsuit that causes restrictions, its the overreaction of misinformed paper pushers to the lawsuits that puts us in jeopardy.
That being said, I doubt Yosemite will ever be closed to climbing. Yes, they closed it to BASE jumping and hangliding, but I don't think Yosemite could ever be called "Cradle of American Hang Gliding". But you might find that you may need to get climbing permits that involve signing your life away.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2005 - 11:37pm PT
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This is the actual shot of the rock fall in which Peter Terbush was unfortunately involved. We had to enter this area to retrieve his body. If you look closely you can see Peter and his partner in this shot.
This is the web site about the rock scar area.
http://landslides.usgs.gov/html_files/landslides/Yosemite99.html
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