Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
|
Thanks GC. Cheers,
|
|
David Lewis
Trad climber
North Conway,New Hampshire
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
|
I hardly ever post but feel the need to comment on this particular thread. If Obama was smart he would have not even been involved until it played out with all the facts. Second and it is my opinion only is that we have 2 people who are not use to having their authority questioned a police officer and an esteemed professor. I usually do not side with police but in this instance we have a neighbor reporting a break in. The police assume that the neighbor knows who lives there and takes extra precautions to ensure that a thief is not allowed to continue with a theft. While being extra cautious he is verbally accosted by Mr. Gates whom is above being questioned as an esteemed professor. The police react maybe escalating it beyond what is correct but maybe not as we were not there. The police were willing to retract their original stance but Gates appears as if he is not. Both are professionals and both should act within the court system and not try to get a conviction through the the court of public press. By no means should the President of the United States get involved at this point until all the facts are unveiled if even ever.
|
|
divad
Trad climber
wmass
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
|
Here's a clear case of racial profiling:
A trooper stops a car on the interstate (65 speed limit) for doing 110 mph.
He approaches the car, a Mercedes with dark tinted windows.
The driver lowers his window and the trooper looks in to see four black men.
The driver says: "What are you stopping me for?"
The trooper says: "Because you're black"
The other three guys in the car start laughing like heck.
True story
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
|
graniteclimber--you are missing an important point, and based on your attitude, I don't think that's going to change, but I'll try one more time:
Gates was in a situation where he was reasonably suspected of committing a burglary. Turns out he was innocent, but the reasonable suspicion was there nonetheless. And that should have been apparent to him, and in fact I think it was apparent to him (as I understand it, he said he understood why the woman who called the police called the police). He was just threw a hissy fit for whatever reason--either he was grumpy, or he's someone who enjoys confrontation or publicity, or he's used to having everyone kiss his a$$, or whatever.
I was falsely accused of a crime and there was no reasonable suspicion for anyone to accuse me of anything. So I don't think I understand what it's like to be black, but I *know* I understand what it's like to be unjustifiably accused of something.
Does Gates? We don't really know, at least I don't. Maybe you do--you seem to be someone who thinks you have some special and enlightened view of reality that others lack. Based on what you write, I surmise you view of reality is little lacking (you've already said as much of me, so it's basically right back at you).
I'm out on this one--many others have politely explained that everyone involved in this story seems to have acted like a jerk and/or idiot.
|
|
Bill Sherman
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
|
Here's an update on Crowley's racial profiling classes as presented by the Associated Press:
"For five of the past six years, Crowley also has volunteered alongside a black colleague in teaching 60 cadets per year about how to avoid targeting suspects merely because of their race, and how to respond to an array of scenarios they might encounter on the beat. Thomas Fleming, director of the Lowell Police Academy, said Crowley was asked by former police Lowell Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black, to be an instructor."
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
|
divad: Perhaps it was the Mercedes that was black. Many are. Are the police allowed to profile types of vehicles?
|
|
divad
Trad climber
wmass
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
|
MH, I suppose there indeed is profiling based on type or appearance of vehicles.
Don't think it was a factor in this case, though.
A car doing 110 is doing 110 if it's white, black, or pink.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
|
"Know your consumer rights, the agreement with the card companies says the businesses cannot card you if the back of the card is signed. "
I *do* know that HG, doesn't do a lot of good tho. They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Either way, you don't get the pizza and there's not a lot you can do about it.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
|
I read the police report. I was on the cop's side of this all along right up to where he arrested Gates. But when he did that he crossed the line (and probably the law.) The cop has already determined that Gates was the lawful resident. Gates was arrested for loudly and repeatedly calling the cop a racist.
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
|
Popo's are generally small peckered guys with self esteem issues that lead to them wanting to impose their authorities on others.
One would think in the process of becoming a professor at Harvard teh esteemed Mr. Gates would have the intelligence to realize the tendancies of police officers to behave in a certain manner and not to give them any reason to be pricks. But, obviously he wasn't bright enough to realize that, and the police officer put himself in the typical position of, I can't back down.
Both parties are at fault.
|
|
ME Climb
Social climber
Behind the orange Curtain
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
|
Will probably get my ass handed to me for this post but....
I have been in law enforcement for nearly half of my life. There are cops out there who are racist, but they are few and far between. This was not a case of racial profiling. The officers responded to a call for service where the neighbor reported two male blacks were forcing their way into the house. The sergeant who arrived first contacts Gates who greets the officer with race card. When that happens you know the contact is going sideways in a heart beat.
I do not know what was going on with Gates; bad day, past issues with the po-po, his own racial prejudices, or what. Unfortunaltely, his behavior brought on this situation. If he had kept his ego and attitude in check this would have been over in a few minutes without any incident.
I would not have arrested him, but I would not agree they acted stupidly.
E
fattrad are you still 10-8?
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
|
"I do not know what was going on with Gates; bad day, past issues with the po-po, his own racial prejudices, or what. Unfortunately, his behavior brought on this situation. If he had kept his ego and attitude in check this would have been over in a few minutes without any incident.
I would not have arrested him, but I would not agree they acted stupidly."
It depends how you define stupid. Crowley arrested him for shouting at Crowley that he was a racist in his own house and from his doorway. Yes, Gates was being an as#@&%e, but it's not against the law to be an as#@&%e. Crowley was walking away and that would have been the end of it. If he had kept his ego and attitude in check this would have been over. But he just couldn't let Gates get in the last word. So he arrested Gates on a bogus charge.
People get tooled like that every day and the cops usually get away with it. Crowley had the bad luck to pick on a celebrity.
It will not be for years from now, when Crowley can look back and and see what this has done to his career, that he will know how stupid it was.
Crowley may not get fired, but is not likely to get promoted or find employment in other police departments.
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
|
Gates was an idiot. The cop was doing his job. Obama should have kept his mouth shut.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
|
Gates was an idiot. The cop was doing his job. Obama should have kept his mouth shut.
yep! But what do I know....
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
|
The reports I read had Gates saying that he asked the police officer for his name and badge number repeatedly which he refused to give?
|
|
HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
|
Nefarius,
I'm glad you knew this already. It's just amazing how many people don't know about their rights.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2009 - 12:28am PT
|
Two guys, one a Prof, and the other a Pro, butted heads, and both failed to live up to their titles.
The cop, once he checked Gates' ID should have simply walked away, no matter how stupidly Gates was acting. A professional would have. He didn't. Hard to see any justification for an "interfering with police investigation" charge being brought after it was discovered the *investigation* was a dry hole.
Then there's a so-called educated man acting like a complete idiot. My guess Gates isn't associated with the engineering department. Probably *Black Studies* or education, if I had to bet. Gates wasn't smart enough to use his substantial intelligence to avoid acting a fool.
|
|
tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2009 - 07:00am PT
|
I would have blamed the cops, but Henry Louis Gates Jr. is acting stupidly on the TV when he keeps saying that he won't let this controversy die.
Controversy.
He is a pot-stirrer. If he wanted to forget racism he wouldn't make sure to keep the controversy alive.
He doesn't want blacks/whites to be equal brothers. He 'wants his rights' -- regardless of the fact that his only effect in the US is to continue to re-enforce the prejudices the KKK has. He is doing absolutely NOTHING to destroy racism.
He doesn't want to play down racism, rather, promote his race.
One creates peace, the other - well, you can see the results of that on the TV.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2009 - 08:00am PT
|
t*r,
Good reply to me. I'm hardly surprised. I enjoy your posts precisely because you articulate your positions thoughtfully and logically. Besides, you post beautiful pictures.
We still disagree on this subject, though. Believe it or not, I and my family have experienced plenty of racism -- particularly my parents. My mother was born a subject of the Ottoman Empire. She was thrown into prison, and her father killed, soley because she was Armenian. Her escape is a story in itself, but irrelevant to this discussion.
My father, who would be 108 today if he were alive, was born here, but Armenians were persona non grata in Fresno then. His youngest sister had to use an assumed name to get her first job. The family lived "on the wrong side fo the tracks" quite literally. There are plenty of anti-Armenian restrictive covenants in Fresno housing tracts, dating from that time and continuing to World War II.
Vestiges of that continued into my day. When I saw those headlines about a private club denying people access to a swimming pool, it brought back memories of my own childhood. There were plenty of clubs and social activities at which I was not welcome solely because of my ethnicity. I hate racism, and have since I was a very young child, in large part because I've been hurt by it.
My problem with the racial/ethnic/gender/sexual oreintation sensitivity classes is not that they point out what's happened inaccurately, but rather that those with which I am familiar and, aparently those my daughters took at Davis, don't look forward, only backward. Yes, I and my family were wrongly discriminated against and yes, we had very little money, goods or social standing compared to those around us.
So what? I had parents who loved each other, and showed us that marriage was about selfless love for your spouse and children. I had parents who loved to read and to question and to learn, and instilled that love in their children as well. Believe me, there are plenty of Armenians of my generation that still carry a chip on their shoulder because of past treatment. My parents didn't, so I'm sure that's why I don't -- and I'm also sure that this attitude was a tremendous advantage for me in this society.
The fact is that if you want to get ahead in the United States, you study hard, work hard -- and don't provoke cops. Just about anyone can do that, if they choose. The courses with which I am familiar, and about which my daughters complained, seemed to say that those who were victims in the past could not do this or, if they did, it would be useless, so we shouldn't expect them to. That is untrue and, IMHO, racist and sexist in the context of these classes.
So back to the subject at hand (and, I hope, back to sleep). Gates chose to provoke the cop. Dumb move -- always. The cop took the bait. Also dumb move -- always. When I was growing up, my parents taught me the saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Instead of teaching sensitivity, maybe we should be teaching some insensitivity. Those who learn it will rise above their circumstances and better themselves. Those who don't will remain victims not because of what others do, but because of choices they themselves make.
John
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2009 - 08:34am PT
|
No one has mentioned that maybe it was the reporting person, who doesn't even recognize their own neighbor, who was the stupid one!
Police who can't handle the heat give decent police a bad name and make it tougher for them to get their job done, in just the same way as pedophile preachers harm the efforts of good priests.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!