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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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I go out and commit a crime. You don't like it so in an effort to stop my crime you yourself also commit a crime.
Unless the Honduran constitution empowers their Congress to ORDER the military to depose the duly elected President A COUP HAS OCCURED.
Well put Dingus - I couldn't agree more.
Edit: TGT, from what I can gather, it was issued post defacto.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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More here;
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529587,00.html
Honduras' attorney general is independent of the president and had called for the president's removal before Congress, the Supreme Court and military to overthrow him.
and
"Freedom has won, peace has triumphed, Honduras has won," newly appointed deputy foreign minister Marta Lorena Casco told the crowd. She said Zelaya had planned to make the country a socialist pawn. "Chavez consumed Venezuela, then Bolivia, after that Ecuador and Nicaragua, but in Honduras that didn't happen," she said.
...interesting.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Bluering - Still at issue, even by your own words (copied from the yahoo news article) "One of several clauses that cannot be legally altered in the Honduran constitution limits presidents to a single, 4-year term. Congress claims Zelaya, whose term ends in January, modified the ballot question at the last minute to help him eventually try to seek re-election. Chavez has used referendums in Venezuela to win the right to run repeatedly."...
The question I ask you is "What if Congress had asked president Bush to step aside 6 months before his term was to end? Then if they approved the military to force him out...?
He is the duely elected president... he should be able to complete his term, regardless of the rules changes mentioned in this article.
The piece you may have missed in this article: The U.N. General Assembly voted Tuesday to demand Zelaya's immediate restoration, and the Organization of American States said Wednesday that coup leaders have three days to restore Zelaya to power or Honduras risks being suspended from the group.
This indicates to me that the UN, United Nations General Assembly want the coup leaders to give it up, and allow the duely elected president complete his term. Once he tries to change the rules to allow him to stay in office longer than his current term, then (and only then) I may agree with you... but until I see the evidence of wrong doing, I will continue to side with the majority of people of Honduras.
Good luck bluering... towing the party line must be getting harder and harder...
A little more you may have missed: Soldiers stormed Zelaya's residence and flew him into exile early Sunday after he insisted on trying to hold a referendum asking Hondurans if they wanted to reform the constitution. The Supreme Court, Congress and the military all deemed his planned ballot illegal.
Zelaya backed down from the referendum Tuesday, saying at the United Nations that he would no longer push for the constitutional changes he wanted.
Sounds like he won't be asking for the changes to the constitution after all... I can't imagine why, but if I had a gun to my head.. I might reconsider pushing the subject as well....
And what is the change he is attempting to make..? What, extend 4 constitutional 4 year term limit to an 8 year term? That's outrageous, preposterous, and would not stand the scrutiny of 5 year old... wait... but isn't that how it is in the US?
Now I'm confused....
More: Zelaya's popularity has sagged in recent years, but his criticism of the wealthy and policies such as raising the minimum wage have earned him the loyalty of many poor Hondurans.
Yup, that's what I thought.. he's actually trying to even the playing field, and bring up the standard of living in Honduras for the common follks, working people.. sounds like there are some powerful interests against that idea... but I can imagine that the common people of the area might like to be able to eat a little something after a hard days work.... wouldn't you?
so there you go..
PS Edit: Mentioning Fox as a reliable news source... does everybody feel the same about Faux as I do... Blowhards? Unreliable, and way slanted?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Once he tries to change the rules to allow him to stay in office longer than his current term, then (and only then) I may agree with you... but until I see the evidence of wrong doing,
Have you been paying attention? That's what he tried to do. The Congress and Supreme Court he was overstepping his powers and was an illegal act for him to hold a national referendum.
He borrowed balloting material from Chavez and skirted the military (who normally overseas elections there) and was going to go ahead with the referendum anyway.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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DMT,
I suspect we're having definitional issues. Webster's defines "coup" as "a sudden and violent change in government." I find that definition closer to yours because, by that definition, any time one needs to arrest and physically remove an office holder who doesn't surrender office voluntarity, there is a "coup."
I think, though, that both of us are assuming that a "coup" also involves some form of illegal force or violence. The legality of Zelaya's removal involves matters about which we are making assumptions. I would illustrate by this example. Suppose Nixon were tried, convicted, ordered removed from office, and he refused, claiming the impeachment illegal. The Constitution contains no explicit provision for enforcement of a president's removal from office. If the administration officials support the president, how could he be removed? If, say, the Supreme Court ordered his forceful removal, is it acting illegally?
I don't know the Honduran Constitution well enough to answer that question in the Zelaya context, but I know of very few national constitutions that have specific provisions for enforcing the removal of the chief executive, and particularly so when the chief executive is the commander-in-chief of the military. If the process for removing Zelaya was followed, and he nonetheless refused to leave, who is consummating the coup -- those removing the unlawfully-serving president, or Zelaya? To me, there's no coup unless those removing him are violating specific procedures for that event.
[edited to correct hasty typing]
John
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sure is a lot of energy going into defending a legally evicted thug.
And nut case to boot.
But then the left has been doing that ever since the days of uncle Joe.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thanks, Dingus. We agree. My only skin is taking issue with those saying with self-righteaous certainty that it was.
Plus, I think we both enjoy stirring the pot.
John
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Arguing over the constitutionality of a central american coup is silly even by taco standards.
It works thusly: the person who controls the military is right.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I thought that was the sum and substance of international law!
John
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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For public scrutiny...
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/52100 (Interview is the first 20-30 minutes of this broadcast.. you have plenty of time, just listen)
Heard this this afternoon on my way home from work.. An interview with the ousted president, in his own words (through an interpreter), discussing the illegal coup and military occupation, to the UN Assembly (sorry, it was a press conference wile at the UN.)
He states that this all came about because he dared to ask (in an official survey) the people of the country their opinion.....
Seems like a perfect reason or cause for a coup to be carried out, even against the wishes of the Honduras people.....?
Go figure!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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He states that this all came about because he dared to ask (in an official survey) the people of the country their opinion.....
Kinda like a Gallup poll, huh?
It was a non-binding referendum, similar to the way his buddy Chavez seized power eventually. AND IT WAS ILLEGAL!!!!
Commies always take baby-steps.
Even the NY Times is getting it now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/02/world/americas/02coup.html?_r=1
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Funny you should say that.. the coup leaders have been reported to have started to force children (as young as 12) into the military to help support the coup.... forcibly...
Listen to this broadcast in my previous post.....? Please, it's in there...
(I'd like to get you the minutes where the reports were made)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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link please....
I betcha Zenaya said this.
Go to a Cuban website and check out what they're saying...the same sh#t you are. Hmmmm....
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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.... and when you have no more facts to point out... start calling names....
I remember getting over this tactic when I was around 6
Let's get past this, Blue... I know you to be a cool guy in person, and you provide me some really cool trip reports (that I enjoy mostly because I am not able to get out there to make some of my own), but politically you are the slowest most backward thinker I've come across in a long time. This should mean nothing to you, and it is not meant to make any changes to you or your life.. It is just how others may be perceiving you, from across the internet.
I'm thinking that since I don't live in Honduras... And I'm not a citizen there.... and I have no claim or stake in Honduras.... Then I have no input on the issues within the country, and so, I really have no say in anything.... I don't know if you do or not, but you seem to put up the front that you do have a claim or stake in Honduras.. so, I'll leave this subject with that. I can only help you to a more solid base with which to form your opinions on for only so long before I have to take it for what it is.
Good luck blue
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Then I have no input on the issues within the country, and so, I really have no say in anything.... I don't know if you do or not, but you seem to put up the front that you do have a claim or stake in Honduras..
You and Dingus, when confronted with numerous facts that dispute your position always resort to this.
My stake in Honduras is that our southern brothers in a democratic republic similar to ours ousted a 'pinche cabron' who was trying to pull a Chavez behind the backs of the 2 other branches of gov't.
They saw this and ousted him before he could pull it off. This should be a SHINING EXAMPLE OF SOUTH AMERICAN PROGRESS against the old dictatorships.
If it was a coup, why is the current pres (formerly head of Congress) not going to run in the next election? If it was a coup, why are they having regularly scheduled elections in Nov. to select a new pres through a democratic process like ours?
The Hondurans just stopped a shitbag, now they select a new pres through the ballot box in a LEGAL FASHION.
EDIT: I like hanging with you too! Going to the facelift this year?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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"You and Dingus, when confronted with numerous facts that dispute your position always resort to this. " - I don't mind being lumped in with DMT, he's an alright guy, just like you... so that didn't work, continue the name calling though, makes you seem like a good father!
"My stake in Honduras is that our southern brothers in a democratic republic similar to ours ousted a 'pinche cabron' who was trying to pull a Chavez behind the backs of the 2 other branches of gov't. " - uhm... can you translate this into english for me.. there seem to be a few things missing, like a point? Your stake in honduras is tht our southern borders in a democratic republic similar to our....?WTF does that mean? I continue... ousted a pinche cabron..? WTF does that mean?... I continue... forget it.. ESL classes, give me you zip code, I can try to sign you up for classes....
Here's a good one...
"If it was a coup, why is the current pres (formerly head of Congress) not going to run in the next election? If it was a coup, why are they having regularly scheduled elections in Nov. to select a new pres through a democratic process like ours? " - One at a time....
"If it was a coup, why is the current pres (formerly head of Congress) not going to run in the next election?" - As the currently democratically elected president stated, its in the constitution that a president is to be in power for a term of 4 years... (not to mention, your earlier statements were that the president was trying to extend his reign, not the flop,... WTF?
Next...
"If it was a coup, why are they having regularly scheduled elections in Nov. to select a new pres through a democratic process like ours?" - Because it will be the legitimate end of the current presidents term.
continue, as far as you know you are on the right side.. the far right side, but the right side nonetheless.... hahahaha
Edit: I plan on going to the Facelift, but cannot say how my body will be behaving in September.. taking it all day by day at this point... just trying to survive, with any sense of dignity
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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