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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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Thanks Yall.
A few things.
I have climbed for a long time, since I was 15 which would be 20 years now....Ive even climbed with some of you....
I have taken many, many, many sport falls and NEVER once have I hit my head.
Woofer, EMT, Paramedic training, emergency room internships, backcountry survival skills......Yea,...Im an idiot.
Saying that I should not let my daughter lead because it is bad parenting is akin to saying that I dont care about the safety and life of my precious daughter....
Get real.
My daughter is quite smart and has no problem telling me when she is not in the mood for an activity. I am very sensitive to my childrens needs and wants/dont wants...thats what good parents do.
Helmet aquired. Sleeves already discussed....
Thanks again for the pics and encouragement.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 16, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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cool pix.
and i don't see sport climbing as necessarily any more dangerous than the stuff that 8 or 9 yr olds routinely do in gymnastics.
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murf02
climber
NYC
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Jun 16, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Many yrs ago climbing trees was a rite of passage for an 8 yr old boy. Ladies? And I don't even think they had helmets back then.
I remember once climbing up 25-30 feet with a rope attached to a branch on another tree at the same height 20 feet away. The plan was to make like Tarzan, but I made like a rock. It would have been nice to have a parent do the math for me ahead of time.
It's great that you're there for your daughter
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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I'm torn on this one too. Can't blame TG, I'm sure the next time anyone reading this thread takes their yungins climbing they may think of this thread. May make their approach a little different may not, no harm done. My daughters of 5 and 6 are climbing all over the place in the trees and on the house but i havn't taken them climbing yet. I'm getting ready to but just 5.10 OW solo.
Just kidding about the OW. Just easy TR. Leading if they want to at a much later date, with helmets and very close bolts.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Next time don't photo-document yer kid's whipper. On the plus side, she didn't lead it clean, so all the naysayers don't have much boom in their cannon.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jun 17, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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That's awesome Apogee...it does put things into perspective doesn't it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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wow.....that's pretty cool.
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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I still don't get whats so bad about my daughter leading...
Don't document it?
Isn't falling part of climbing?
Its not like I racked her up and sent her up a finger crack in the desert without beta.
That comes when shes 9....
I stand by my decisions, and even admitted before anyone pointed it out that she would wear a helmet leading from now on.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 17, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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Don't sweat it Chinch. Ain't no one way to raise a kid.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Look, Chinchen, there is no 'right' answer here- following a post like yours, you are going to find a bunch of varying views about what is the best way to raise a kid, how/if to expose a kid to climbing, when they should start leading...it's all pretty subjective. For every reason you or others can give to justify an 8 y/o leading, there are going to be just as many who can find reasons why it isn't a good idea. How is that any different from any other parenting decision?
If you feel very solid in your judgement to allow your 8 y/o to lead, then go forward confidently, and don't let a bunch of people with varying opinions sway your decision. No matter what others may believe, your kid had a great experience, and that is what matters. Revel in that- you are a lucky person.
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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Awesome, thanks.
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jun 17, 2009 - 03:52am PT
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Alright for Anika! Doesn't seem like Chinchen is living his dreams through is daughter, but giving her the experience only a climbing parent can. Good on ya!
Tomo
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2009 - 04:07am PT
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I was forever climbing high in big trees in the midwest as a kid on through until I left for Vietnam. Several years later as a 'real' climber I couldn't make myself do some of the same fourth story tree-to-roof transitions I did all the time just a couple of years prior. No ropes, no helmets, no fear - until I became a climber - go friggin' figure. Then later as an arborist taking down big trees in downtown Chicago I got to where I was not really liking climbing in trees at all. Glad I couldn't forsee that progression as a little kid who just loved to monkey around.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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I have climbed for a long time, since I was 15 which would be 20 years now....Ive even climbed with some of you....
I have taken many, many, many sport falls and NEVER once have I hit my head.
There you have it! Since it NEVER happened to you, it won't happen to your daughter. Also since it never happened to you, it won't ever happen to any other climber. Since no climber will ever fall sport climbing and hit his head, there should never be a climber dying as a result of hitting his head on a sport climbing fall.
This is called the fallacy of the survivor, not that what it is called matters. It occurs all over the place, because people convince themselves from history that the future will be the same.
There is a similar fallacy, that bad things only happen to "the other guy", which is used to explain away the "fallen climbers" thread on this forum.
Saying that I should not let my daughter lead because it is bad parenting is akin to saying that I dont care about the safety and life of my precious daughter....
Get real.
No, this is also bad logic. Nobody said you don't care about your daughter. That you do, and that you are proud of her is obvious and admirable. What has been said is that you made a bad choice. Rather than admit to that (other than the helmet), you choose instead to take it personally and shoot the messenger.
My daughter is quite smart and has no problem telling me when she is not in the mood for an activity. I am very sensitive to my childrens needs and wants/dont wants...thats what good parents do.
If she is so smart, why aren't you bragging about her choice of colleges... Seriously, she is only 8. She might be a very smart 8. Maybe she even reads at the age 12 level. Perhaps she is doing algebra and can explain the forces on an anchor using vectors and is almost done with high school phyics.
Just being smart is not a qualification to lead climb. She does not NEED to lead climb.
Bravo, for your relationship with her. If she told you tomorrow that she wanted to experiment, just a little, with marijuana, I doubt that you would condone it, even if you had been using it yourself for years. If she started playing hockey next year, even though checking is a part of the professional and college level games, she would not be checking. The league she would be in would not allow it.
Consider just setting up top-ropes, or even let her follow you on climbs that are "escapable" if she can't follow. There is plenty of time to learn to lead and check and a time and age when it may be appropriate. Even that time may well depend on additional factors.
Finally, "falling" is not a part of "climbing". It is what you do when you aren't climbing. It is also when you are most likely to get hurt. "Falling" is the reason for using rope, harnesses, and protective gear.
Surely you know plenty of people who have broken bones falling on safe climbs. I know people who have broken bones, and had any number of soft tissue injuries falling on climbs, even in the gym on completely overhanging ground. If you are honest with yourself, you will realize why you were sweating her making the last clip, and why you were ready to lower after her fall.
Anybody know someone who fell and died on a safe climb?
I know of someone who fell and died on a 5.4. It was a short one-pitch climb with a G rating. IIRC, he was wearing a helmet.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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TIG-- I'd relax a bit. Lots of 8 yr. olds pursue sport activities at least as dangerous as sport climbing.
Gymnastics, horseback riding, boarding, bicycling on city streets, etc., etc.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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I think it's a good idea for helmets to be required for kids on bikes, in skate parks, etc. I think for lead climbing it's just as important.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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yeah, what about helmets in gymnastics? ice skating? soccer?
my guess is that all of those are still a ways off.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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klk - got ya. There is another fallacy - one that most parents recognize when their kids say "Well Johnny does it".
That one has been used several times in this thread if you look for it. Tell me, at what minimum age is jumping on horses allowed. I am not real familiar with that sport.
Girls' gymnastics is really bad example. It has a terrible record of producing kids with eating disorders and other health problems. All of the parents are well-meaning here, of course.
BTW. The Olympics set minimum age levels to address this very problem.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Damn right Cinch! How proud you must be!
Tradisbad: Go climbing you grumpy rusty c*nt bucket. How long does it take you to type those damn novels?
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