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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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As Americans it is our right/duty to carry any weapon we choose in any place we choose. To deny this right is to violate our sacred constitution.
Citizens of the United States clearly have the right to carry:
handguns
rifles
automatic weapons
biological weapons
land mines
grenades
explosive devices of any kind
rocket launchers and grenades
heat seeking missiles
various gases, especially those prohibited by the Geneva Convention
waterboards for those special occasions
AND NUKES!
Anybody that disagrees with this list is a damned commie sympathizer, cause it's our GOD given right!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Sooo... your saying the constitution allows us to carry a musket?
I disagree, the constitution allows us to form "A WELL ARMED MILITIA."
In a contemporary context that would have to mean comparable military weapons and that would mean nukes.
And your right about only having to use half a brain for this kind of argument.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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The militia man was an equivalent warrior. That is, his arms were equivalent to those of the enemy or those of the powers that be. Nothing in the constitution discusses the kinds of "arms" we have the right to carry. In order for the 2nd A. to function as a protection against tyranny, citizens must have the right to equivalent arms. Your Glock 9mm is rubbish against the onslaught of the government's F16.
If you accept the fact that certain weaponry should not be available to the citizenry then you have already accepted the logical necessity of weapon control. It's simply a matter of degree. You argue against yourself the moment you accept any limits on the type of weapons one can posses.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 21, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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It's a sad commentary that my 9 y/o son has better gun handling and gun safety skills than many people in the military and police forces.
This is because he has been taught from a very young age how to safely handle firearms. He never developed a fear of them, or an unhealthy curiosity. I can leave a loaded firearm in the house and he won't touch it. Every time he handles a firearm he checks to make sure it is unloaded. If he doesn't, he is reminded to do so, every time.
If you think this is what threatens you, you have been sadly deluded. The politiceans in Sacramento, DC etc are the greatest threat to your safety, freedom and way of life.
But, it's so much easier to label folks rednecks and gun loonies and laugh at them. Jokes on you, and you won't be laughing when you come to that realization. History is rife with those lessons, funny how so many "intelligent" people are unable or unwilling to learn them.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 21, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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I'm in favor of the right to bear arms. But...
It sucks to have to carry around an extra 1-2 lbs of metal to feel safe, what a PITA. I have NEVER wished I had brought along any of my guns anywhere unless I was planning on shooting them for sport. I understand other people feel differently and may need to be in more dangerous situations though.
There will be some instances were an armed citizen prevents a crime but I'd bet there will be more instances where some jackass shoots someone for no good reason or accidental shootings.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 21, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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If we really wanted to ban metal machines that kill people, we'd ban the automobile.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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You have to be kidding. If you think you can defend yourself against a fully armed F16 with your handgun, then god bless you. I like optimism, I think it's an important quality in the American psyche, but...
Freedom has become, by necessity, a function of population. Crowded places make weapons increasingly dangerous no matter who's in control of them.
My point with regard to the nukes was to demonstrate that almost everybody is in favor of weapon control. The control of weapons for the safety of all is plain common sense. This current argument is simply about where to draw the line. But we all agree some weapons need to be off limits to citizens regardless of any interpretation of the constitution.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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A single F-16 properly loaded with the correct weaponry could destroy Afghanistan in less than a few hours. What is happening in that country is not a war but a politically constrained police action. The notion that poorly armed peasants could have a fighting chance in an all out war against a mechanized modern army and its air force is pure romanticism, the stuff of dreams, movies and comic books.
But I'm glad to see you admit the need for government control of dangerous weapons.
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nutjob
climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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Good coverage of the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Text of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
So the litmus test of any current legal action regarding firearms should be this: is the security of "a free state" improved or worsened by the legal action?
It seems to boil down to a common sense tradeoff: if we have more legal guns, do more people die from accidents or abuses of that legal right, or does that legal right more often stop crimes or other threats to security?
Are there other points where this argument should be focused, or does that sum it up?
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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Rox, I hear what you are saying, but Afghans had stinger missiles and rpgs.
A good insurgent stands by his AK and RPG Combo. I think the cow left the barn a long time ago when it comes down to actually fighting the govt, unless the military itself splits, which is likely in the event of a new civil war.
Either way, In think our personal weapons are for self protection, hunting, and fun these days, nothing more.
When I can get grenades, RPGs, stingers and predator drones, perhaps I'll change my mind.
As for the bill in question, I'm not sure what it does.
Any body know if you can carry a gun into Yosemite if you have a valid CCW?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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I'd say that sums it up. The issue is to draw the line at a place that most benefits both our safety and liberty.
Unfortunately the emotion tied to this subject obfuscates the reality that we live in a more complicated social structure than the founding fathers did. One in which our freedoms are often diminished by the need for equality and protection (public safety).
Admittedly, it is a hard balance to find.
But it's necessary to accept the idea that freedom is a function of population.
The historian A. Hoffstader said it best, "America is the only country that started with perfection and opted for progress."
The freedom to carry weapons is offset by the danger those weapons may impose on others. National parks are notoriously crowded, often difficult environments where, while guns may protect some, guns may be the instruments of disaster.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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May 21, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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A country where only the government is armed is not a "free state".
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 21, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
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Weapons do not pose a danger by themselves.
Idiots pose the danger, whether they have a gun, a car, or climbing gear. I'm sure Werner has plenty of stories of climbers that were and are a danger to themselves and others.
Legislation does not make anything safer. It rarely changes the behaviour of those who have a general lack of regard for laws and rules. And it certainly does infringe upon the rights and freedoms of the majority of the people.
If I had a firm belief that giving up my guns and ammo would make the world safer, I'd destroy them myself. But I know that they post no threat in and of themselves. I also have a firm belief that those who are bent to do harm and take advantage of others are sometimes desuaded from their actions due to the odds of coming across someone who will fight vs. capitualate.
Police only pick up the pieces, and provide evidence to prosecutors who might be able to put the bad guys away, for a short while.
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Queener
Mountain climber
boston
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May 21, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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Being that my 12Ga is always in my truck, this is great. Although its legal on BLM land to carry and discharge firearms, the added National Parks is nice as well.
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Cpt0bvi0u5
Gym climber
San Diego CA
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May 21, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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Well now that you can pack heat you can shoot people who litter on el cap on sight now! Might not be such a bad thing....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 21, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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Rox, How did you get that CCW permit after getting busted with 8oz of weed in seperate bags which is usually associated with intent to sell?
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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May 22, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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^^
He was in disguise...
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Lissiehoya
climber
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May 22, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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Thanks for clarifying Norton. The way they've been talking about it on the radio it sounds like *anyone* can carry a concealed weapon into the parks with this amendment.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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May 22, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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On the plus side, now if I wanted a gun I know there will be a bunch of easy marks to take one away from.
Hope I see Fatso around, I'll leave him naked, bleeding and gatless. Better be carrying a quality piece Fatty, I don't wanna get stuck with some Saturday Night Special piece o crap.
Just think how many more vehicle breakins this will spur.
Woah! I feel safer already.
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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May 22, 2009 - 02:24am PT
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bruce allen curtis may he rot in leavenworth 1976 YNP killer
kerry wayne stainer may he rot in leavenworth 1994? El Portal crazy
black bears are simply amusing ,stash your food properly .ill keep my rights private and hidden, ccw in hand,and hope to never have to use deadly force to defend myself , or others from extremly dangerous people intent on mayhem and murder.
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