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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:39am PT
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My rule is that deep green moss in any large quantity means that it is not a rock climb. That stuff is pretty and it also means that the climb will be wet much of the time and a shady dank black fly nightmare. Best come back in the winter and have look to see if it is a decent ice climb.
Dry lichen, elephant ears, bushes, dirt , trees etc that may be littering a nice piece of dry rock are all fair game. Git er done. Nothing wrong with chainsawing a few trees if you put the wood to good use;)
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:57am PT
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There is a local crag that has about 10 routes on it near where I live, the Old Highway Crag. Anyway, there is a stellar looking slightly overhanging headwall on it that starts about 30 feet up the crag. I asked the couple who have established the new routes there why they have not put routes up this headwall, as it looks to have clean burly amazing climbing on it. She pointed out that the ledge beneath the head wall contains a old growth poison oak forest of biblical proportions. It guards the way, none may pass. It is going to take some brave souls to tackle this section. Any takers?
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Each successive generation comes along and believes they have all the right in the world to 'develop' a new crag- that it was put there for their use, and they have every right to use it the way they see fit- how is that any better than the ORV crowds that have the same sense of entitlement, wreaking havoc everywhere they go? It would seem logical that many of the 'developers' could also be devoted ORV'ers, with a similar (dis)regard for the land?
Those before/after shots are a travesty, and nothing close to the kind of environmental ethic I remember when I started climbing decades ago. It is not hard to understand why conflicts arise in many areas (verbal & physical) amongst land managers and, more disturbingly, between climbers, when this is the kind of impact they are having.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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I have to disagree in this instance. I believe the photos above are taken in a area that has literally 20 times as much rock as Yosemite, but almost NONE that is safe to climb on. Some little crags hidden in the woods on the sides of obscure hills, in places where no one ever goes with the exception of the guys cleaning a few lines have virtually no impact as if they were to walk away and not come back for a couple years it would be as if no one had been there. The area here is so wet and verdant, that you can't keep the moss off the rocks! The crag is also SOUTH FACING, just FYI. I was just climbing at a nearby crag yesterday. Had to deal with the moss and slime as winter is just drawing to a close and not much traffic as yet.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Studly, whatevvah. Every 'developer' rationalizes their decision and action with similar justifications- the end product is the same.
Assuming those shots are in WA, there is plenty of good, clean, classic, climbable rock in the PNW- regularly repeating that kind of 'development' is completely unnecessary, and to my eye is likely driven primarily by an individual's ego and desire for notoriety (Edit: not to mention convenience, as demonstrated by the nicely bolted crack. WTF?)
Another Edit:
After re-reading the OP, this sentence struck me:
"I've also worked with BLM in the Bishop area monitoring/protecting petroglyphs that were being defaced by climbers."
Such an interesting apparent conflict in applied ethics- ok to develop, disturb (some would say, destroy) a new area, but protects resources that were being defaced by climbers. Again, WTF?
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Manufacturing a rock climb by wire brush, ice axe, sledgehammer (see photo above), bleach, power washers, saws, crowbars is no different than chiseling or chipping holds. Todd G's approach is just right.
As a climber I am embarrassed and repulsed. If I were a land owner or manager I would instantly eliminate access to atvs, 4x4s, and yes, climbers.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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I'm not a developer dude. Nor have I been to the exact "area" in the photos. I am extremely enviromentally conscious, but I also know that pruning plants does not kill them, and that here in this area, it grows back so fast you can hardly stay on top of it. This is not California, it is in one of the wettest rainiest spots in the Pacific NW.
Don't judge if you don't know what you are talking about.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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Studly, I do know what I am talking about. I have been climbing for a long time (including in the PNW), and have watched the slow degradation of a lot of natural area by a user group (climbers) that supposedly prides itself on environmental awareness and respect.
It is true that without that kind of 'development', some of the greatest climbing areas (i.e. Squamish, Index, etc.) in the PNW would still be cloaked under slide alder and devil's club. I have enjoyed the fruits of the labor of past developers, too- my point is that, cumulatively, progressively, it isn't stopping- the bar has been progressively lowering in the judgement regarding acceptable impacts, and what areas should be developed in the first place, and how they are developed. If you haven't been climbing for decades, it probably isn't that noticeable, or it just doesn't matter that much to you.
As a user group, climbers are becoming pretty similar to any other mainstream outdoor recreationalist, in terms of impact. That's a far cry from our roots.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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The before and after shots with the lush green moss. that is one that i would have passed on. We have a lot of that stuff here in VT as well but we also have enough of the dry crumbly lichen infested rock to keep me busy. At least when you clean off the dry crumbly stuff you get a decent rout that stays decent as long as it gets traffic. I am a fairly agessive cleaner but that before and after sequence does go past what I consider appropriate. If that is all you have though then I can see how it could happen.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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"As a user group, climbers are becoming pretty similar to any other mainstream outdoor recreationalist, in terms of impact."
Exactly.
Should motorcyclists scrub cliff faces and trundle rocks to manufacture drops and motocross circuits? Climbers are no different...both groups think they are entitled.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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I don't feel so good....
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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I have spent a fair amount of time at Squamish and a lot of time at Index and can say with certainty that neither slide alder or devil’s club has ever been an issue at Index. Moss, Vine Maple and Himalayan Blackberry (an invasive species by the way) are far more troublesome. Many routes have had significant amounts of moss scrubbed off them only to be rescrubbed again a few years later by another climber thinking that they were there first party even to be there. Index receives over 100”of rain annually. Comparing the cleaning of vegetation at Index or even Squamish to places like CA ( even most Humboldt County where I lived and climbed for many years) or Vermont is a poor and very naïve comparison. The cleaning of route lines is not always synonymous with extensive development.
I have no idea where those pictures are taken but if a similar cliff was cleaned at Index after two winters you’d never know that it had been cleaned. Climber created trails in the SW are a far more long lasting development/eyesore. Any idea how long the the lichen free trail on Reeds Direct will last if climbers stopped climbing?
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
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"Comparing the cleaning of vegetation at Index or even Squamish to places like CA ( even most Humboldt County where I lived and climbed for many years) or Vermont is a poor and very naïve comparison. The cleaning of route lines is not always synonymous with extensive development."
Darryl (and others), none of my comments have conveyed an expectation that potential PNW crags (or SE, or anywhere else) are the same as SW crags. Further, there is a big difference b/w scrubbing moss and the kind of mechanical destruction that is illustrated in the previous photo sequences, no matter what environment you are in.
Our perceptions of acceptable impacts have deteriorated as a user group- virtually no-one who has climbed for decades can deny that the oldest, most popular climbing areas have significantly degraded due to overuse. There are plenty of high-quality, already established areas in the PNW (and the SW, which is the context of the OP), and I would bet that most of the pro-development posters here have not come close to tapping them out. Is another scruffy little crag really necessary in the big picture?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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No idea where this is. If it was at Index or nearby I doubt I would ever clean it for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons is that in two years it would be right back in the same condition. I may think that cleaning off a cliff like this is a waste of time and energy but I very much doubt it is the huge scar many are suggesting it is.
I believe the area shown in Ghost's pictures are not some pissant crag but a rather large formation with many quality routes. If I am correct in what crag it is, it is a far better
crag than virtualy any in the Leavenworth area.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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Most of my cleaning experience is at Squamish. I've never cleaned a route at Index, so am not qualified to say much about that area, other than that it seems to be similar in vegetation, rainfall, and rock type to Squamish.
But at Squamish, virtually every one of the hundreds of amazing crack pitches that the place has become world-famous for was dug out of the jungle by climbers armed with everything from screwdrivers and wirebrushes through alpine hammers and pruning saws, to huge crowbars.
This was all done with the full knowledge of both the local community and the climbing community. It has not led to ecological disaster, to legal problems, to access problems, or to unhappiness on the part of anyone that I know of. The area has not been made to look ugly, or abused, and has in fact become an mecca for climbers from around the world -- none of whom goes away muttering about environmental damage.
The general concensus among those who have been part of this process is that it takes about 100 person hours per pitch to bring a crack at Squamish into climbable condition. So, for example, if you go up there and climb Borderline, a six-pitch route on the left side of the Sheriff's Badge on the north wall of the Chief, you're enjoying yourself based on the 600 hours of effort that Eric and Susan and I put into it. At 200 hours each, that's the equivalent of over twenty full days of climbing that each of us gave up in exchange for backbreaking, filthy labor. If you think that we, or anyone else, would do this kind of thing without considering the consequences, you should think again. If there was some way that we who climb up here could put up routes without that investment in blood and sweat, and without the removal of vegetation, we'd be all over it.
Now maybe there are beautiful crags, with routes that can be done without environmental impact, near Vancouver and Seattle that I don't know about. If so, tell me where they are and I'll re-direct my energy.
David
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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Just as it is inaccurate to compare development techniques in one area of the country vs. another (i.e. SW vs. PNW), it is not a reasonable (in my book) to compare practices or standards that were used to develop climbing areas 20, 30, or 40 years ago with new areas today.
Times have changed: there are lots more climbers now, there are lots more climbing areas, and there has been a lot of accumulated impact since then. While many environmental purists may lament the techniques that were used to develop an area like Squamish (for the most part, I'm not really one of them, believe it or not), much/most of it was done at a time when the overall impact of climbing and climbers was much, much less than it is today.
Unfortunately, there are newer generation climbers who use past practices and standards to rationalize their own current actions, without the big picture perspective of time.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Back to the Original post:
The original question relates to a crag in SLO County, not in the Pacific Northwest. Trust me, moss and lichen are very sensitive issues here. Some have been working hard on a particular access issue here for over three and a half years, partially based on moss and lichen issues.
Please be conservative, both in your actions and your postings.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Hard to believe!
The issue is not where it is, but whose it is!
You are trespassing unless it is yours.
It doesn't even matter whether is is private property or public
property.
You can't spray paint your neighbor's house without his
permission, nor your local public school!
Nor can you legally climb either one, without permission.
Pretty easy to imagine after lawyer's fees and maybe a trial,
you could be bankrupt after removing vegetation or making
alterations that were irreversible or took a long time to be
reversed.
You might be better off cleaning your neighbor's garden, or the
local farmer's field!
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Warbler asked bwancy1:
You sound as if you have knowledge of long term environmental damage, or collateral damage caused by removing lichen and/or moss from rock.
I am not answering concerning the SLO area; however, I think that no one answer can be applied universally without making some huge errors. All mosses are not created equal. A plant survey was made at the cliffs around Index when many parcels in the area were being purchased by WA State Parks. The survey designated several locations as fragile. (They may have used the term threatened on occasion, I can't remember) None of these areas ended up being on State parks land. Climbers decided not to climb in the fragile areas. In the 17 years or so since the survey was made tons of moss have been removed with no complaints.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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"at Squamish, virtually every one of the hundreds of amazing crack pitches that the place has become world-famous for was dug out of the jungle by climbers armed with everything from screwdrivers and wirebrushes through alpine hammers and pruning saws, to huge crowbars."
and
"I have to disagree in this instance. I believe the photos above are taken in a area that has literally 20 times as much rock as Yosemite, but almost NONE that is safe to climb on. Some little crags hidden in the woods on the sides of obscure hills, in places where no one ever goes with the exception of the guys cleaning a few lines have virtually no impact as if they were to walk away and not come back for a couple years it would be as if no one had been there. The area here is so wet and verdant, that you can't keep the moss off the rocks! The crag is also SOUTH FACING, just FYI. I was just climbing at a nearby crag yesterday. Had to deal with the moss and slime as winter is just drawing to a close and not much traffic as yet.
For the first part: within 2 to 3 years, if no one climbs them (perhaps even if they do) they will be overgrown and reclaimed. Up here, you can be walking in the woods, stop to take a drink of water, and only by seeing a stone arch structure in the moss right there that you realize was once a road that is now overgrown and 99 percent invisible.
2nd part: on the money Studly.
But that's here, this area. I always appreciated being able to leave my car, walk up to a random cliff in the Sierra not in any guidebook and climb it ground up both seeing no sign of people and leaving no sign of our passing. But that's there, not the Pac NW/Squamish.
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