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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Well then, I guess we have established that the Brits are silly:) They rock climb in the rain, drink too much while climbing, make WAY too much fuss over bolts and aparenty need 120m of rope to get up a 20m boulder;)
Wandering line of bolts like in your photo and sandstone to boot, of course I would seperate the ropes and use them as doubles.
There are Many situations where doubbles are safer and more practicle, especialy for protecting the 2nd. There are also Many situations where singles are more practicle, pleanty safe and easier to use. There are even situations where singles are safer.
I do All my multi pitch free climbing with doubbles. I do most of my single pitch ice climbing with doubbles though I do sometimes use a single 1/2 rope for single pitch ice or light alpine ice.
I do all my sport climbing and 1/2 pitch trad cragging with single ropes. I try to do all my Aid climbing with a fat single rope and tag line. I have done a few Aid pitches with the skinny ropes but don't really like it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Arne, I cut all my own firewood and lug it out with an 86 F150. Got lots of old climbing rope so I use it for whatever. It is not ideal for towing things because of the streach but it gets most jobs done and its basicly free. It is also good for your climbing head to see how strong that stuff really is.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 13, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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There is one problem that does not get mentioned much in these threads, and that is the intended use (by the manufacturere) of the doubles. IF the main purpose of the set is ice snow etc, then fine, skinny rubberbands are wonderful, like the pmi verglas.
BUT, take hose verglas on edgedy sandstone or other abraidy rock, and you can get into trouble. ( how you like my new vocab there Rgold? haha if two 'b's in double bothered you I hate to think what's going on in yer noggin right now!)
I'm speaking from the very real experience of seeing (after about 15-20 falls in the same spot) the verglas becoming severely damaged.
So, whatever you think about doubles, you really need to consider the kind of climbing they are inteneded for before just getting on any set on any surface.
I personally, (if I were going to get well adn be climbing that is) would be looking for some thin but not too thin (8.1 is a bit thin, 8.5 maybe a tad thick, hell I just wouldn't want to go outside those ranges though, for various reasons) would want to KNOW that my doubles were designed for ROCK, cause I don't do ice.
that said, I love doubles. they have so many advantages over a single it's just no argument for me. I did climb on mammut genesis 8.5, loved em, loved the catch, felt they were not hard to belay with, but they could use a little tougher sheath for rock. but then I think they are not rated as best for rock, by mammut themselves. One other thing I'd be after is uh, well I forgot, damned drugs. Oh well, someone will get it. Oh yeah, twin/double rating! I think that's cool, cause nto every pitch is calling for doubles, so teh ability to clip (ALL PITCH LONG mind you) as either doubles or twins (if yo udon;t like my terminology, too bad, twin means clipped together, double means seperately to me).
that's my bit on Doubles, except to add that beware if you are doing this for the first time: it's not the leader who has the most trouble, it's the belayer. so learn to belay with em and pay attention, cause that get's a lot more complicated than single ropes even thought about.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Arne, I think your honest assesment of your belaying skills with doubles is dead on for 95% of the people useing the system. I know that Myself i can give a really good belay with doubbles but still get caught in akward situations from time to time that simply would not happen with a single rope system.
My beef with the tag line system is simply if I have to lug it I may as well use it for climbing. Additionaly 2 skinnys are going to be lighter than one skinny and one fatty.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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My beef with the tag line system is simply if I have to lug it I may as well use it for climbing. Additionaly 2 skinnys are going to be lighter than one skinny and one fatty.
Correct. But the length of the rappel is the same. It's always touted as an advantage of using doubles, as if we were asking, hmmm, should I choose a set of doubles or one single rope?
Arne
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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All sorts of technical speculation going on here. One thing thougn needs to be clear. ALL double ropes on the market today are NOT RATED AS TWINS. Some may not be because they didn't go through the twin certification process. But, some, like the 9.0 doubles from some manufacturers, have been through the twin tests, and FAILED because of high impact forces.
Clipping both doubles to a single piece after spearating them early in the pitch... This is a different scenario force wise than clipping them like twins from the get go.
Clipping your fat doubles like twins on a bolted pitch, no big deal. Bolts are strong. Clipping your fat doubles like twins on a straight tips crack pitch with rps and micro cams, not for me.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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well I hope yo uare not referring to my post, because I did not mention clipping unrated for both as both. That could be bad, of course.
Also for the tech side, Rgold did good explanation of clipping two NOT creating the same thing as just doubling the effect of clipping one. Maybe he will post it again for your amusement.
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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I love double ropes it gives you alot of creative options when weird things happen. They worked really great on inverted stair case on Fairview.
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 13, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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No dirt, tradmanclimbs is sharing lots of cool practical observations, but also incorrect factual information.
Rgold has been clearing things up though.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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yer right , Some of what I say is probobly against the rules but in the practicle sense of how it actually works I feel that I am dead on most of the time. Why is it not safe to clip both of my 1/2 ropes to a single biner if the little pictuer on the card that comes with the ropes shows a pitcuer of both ropes running straight clipped to the same biner and a happy face. No skull and crossbones like the pictuer with the ropes all twisted to crap, seperated and then stuffed back into the biner. Regardless of what the pictuer says I seem to recall my partner clipping the bolts on Total Recall just like she was useing twins, then she greased off for a 20 footer. Sterling 8.8 maratrhons. resulting catch was light as a feather. Didn't yank me any more or less than catching simeler falls on single rope. Real life ain't a theory ;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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PP I like the system otherwise I wouldn't use it. I am just willing to concede that the single rope system has its merits as well. There must be a reason that the doubble rope system never really dominated the Yosemite scene where as in the east, doubble ropes have had a pretty strong showing.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 13, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
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Blah: In the last few years, I've read posts of several UIAA single rope drop tests applied to one of a pair of half ropes. Not quite factor 2, but close enough at factor 1.78. 80 kg weight, not 55 kg. My memory is that you get about three such drops before the half rope breaks, which is not enough to earn a UIAA single rope certification.
Edit: Half ropes do not break on the first UIAA single-rope drop test. Consider this in view of
Number of Rope Failures amongst German and Austrian Mountaineers and Climbers since 1968
by Pit Schubert
Because the fall on the Dodero-test-machine is much stronger than in practice, it is not possible (in practice no rigid falling mass, no strictly static belay) for a rope which holds one fall on the Dodero-test-machine to break in practice - not in knot, not in the running belay, not at the belaying device, only when the rope is loaded over a sharp edge, normally a rock edge. And this happens as the table shows very, very seldom.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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I posted that up thread with the unscientific disclaimer. they break!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 13, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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As for the comparison with the tag line, I'm at a loss to see much of an advantage. The weight is about the same I think. The tag line could be used to haul up gear (its original use), but that seems unnecessary except on wall climbs. Seems like twins would make much more sense if you don't want the hassles of alternate clipping.
The main drawback of the tag line rappel system and, to a lesser but not insignificant extent, twins, is that most people set it up to pull the tag line (to prevent the uneven running that is typical if the set-up is to pull the main rope). This means that if the rappel rope hangs up after it releases from the anchor, the party will be left with only the tag line to try to extricate themselves, rather than with a rope that can be lead on with some confidence and rappelled on without high anxiety and extremely low friction.
As someone who had exactly this type of rappel snag happen a year ago, I wouldn't go anywhere even slightly remote with a single rope and a tag line.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Apr 13, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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So here's a (barely-related) question: does anyone have Edelweiss Dynamic 8.3's ? As I understand it, they are now rated as half ropes and twin ropes. But as of several years ago, they were only rated as half ropes. As far as I can tell, the older ones have the same impact force (5.8 kN as halfs), elongation, etc. as the current model.
Does anyone know if the current edelweiss dynamic 8.3's are simply the same ropes as before, just with new testing / marketing / labels as the previous model ?
I also have a set of pmi verglas 8.1's, but have only used them for ice climbing. They are also getting a bit old (bought in 2005), though they haven't seen much use. Wondering if I should just retire them in 2010 .. I can't see myself tr'ing on them.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 13, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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rhyang, I don't know whether the ropes are different or not, presumably they have to be. What would have to have changed is not any of the stats you mentioned, but rather how many UIAA drops with an 80 kg weight are held. I think the standard is 5 drops. The earlier versions of the rope couldn't hold 5 drops and the newer, presumably improved versions can. Whether this is due to a change in construction or in, say, heat-treating I do not know.
Edit: My bad. I didn't read your statement carefully enough and thought you were referring to the ropes passing a single-rope test when used individually.
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Jim E
climber
away
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Apr 13, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Half ropes are drop tested with 55kg on a single strand. Twins are tested with 80kg on two strands.
The addition of the 'twin' rating is probably due to the manufacturer deciding to have the rope tested as both. It's the 'in' thing.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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Jim. so glad you showed up! Didn't you tell us awhile back that a single rope has a lower impact force than a 1/2 rope? Also remember something about elongation being not what most folks assume?
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