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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 15, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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You can dismiss anything YOU want.....the book says your wrong!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 15, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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Arguing about the first 5.11 is like arguing about the first v3. Kinda pointless, isn't it?
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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First of all I don't think anyone has been
arguing. It feels more like civilized people
having a few civilized reflections about a time
long gone but that remains precious in memory.
And the discussion has been specific to the Valley
and has been about the whole world, although a few
have tried to open the discussion to that bigger view.
If I accurately interpret the tone of the last comment,
it might indeed seem, by today's high standards,
that 5.11 is almost beneath us to talk about
anymore. In fact, though, everything is relative
to its day. 5.11 was as significant way back then
than the tough pitches are today. You have to
remember that was a time when 5.11 was out there
almost beyond the ability of the best of the best.
Just as the four-minute mile was a breakthrough point
for runners. Can we in any way belittle that achievement
of first running a mile under 4 minutes. Heck, I can
hardly drive it that fast, even now.
There weren't millions of climbers back in the
golden age. No one trained
in gyms or developed high-tech training regimes.
There were a few, such as Gill, Goldstone, or myself, who were
gymnasts and trained, but often in ways not necessarily
conducive to climbing. Even as a gymnast I was never
all that strong. Most other climbers did the
usual pull-ups to get back in shape a little, then
trained on the rock. No one back then started when they
are five years old, the way many do today.
It's hard for today's climbers to realize exactly what 5.11
might have been like with lousy climbing shoes, i.e.
none of the current rubber that almost glues itself
to rock, or how much more difficult it would be, say,
to lead New Dimensions with a clumsy, heavy rack of
pitons, and how hard it would be to get in and take
out those pitons, as opposed to the enormous
modern convenience of Friends. New Dimensions was
a substantial achievement, even considering that it
wasn't originally done all free.
The general progression
of consciousness is always such that we start at
a certain level, and each new breakthrough is one
of the building blocks for tomorrow. Those little blocks
each has a place. Take one away, and, well, maybe the
whole tower comes crashing down. I suppose I'm getting too
metaphorical, but in my way of thinking all of these
little obscure things in the past are important and
should be properly valued, even some 5.8 or 5.9 done
by Mark Powell or some fundamentally unknown climb
somewhere by one or another of our past heroes.
As for "v3," I'm sure people were bouldering at that
level long before 5.11 became the top of the standard.
There have been phenomenal boulderers all around the
country, in the Gunks, at Devil's Lake, of course Gill,
and Greg Lowe, even a few in Colorado... I hope you're
not making a comparison between v3 and 5.11, but if you
are, well, then I probably don't understand the v system.
Anyway I can't imagine anyone could make a claim to the
first v3, as that would be too vague, whereas the talk
about 5.11 is relatively specific...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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I was going to mention also, John (Largo)
that Kamps' Chingadera, which you mention,
does in fact pre-date the Valley 5.11s,
so it would be one of the early 5.11s in California.
Powell told me not long ago that really good
climbers found it almost impossible to clip that
bolt Kamps placed on Chingadera much less find a
way to stand there in balance and hand-drill it
(with a hammer). Kamps was a mighty talent, as
was his right-hand man Dave Rearick.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Sorry about all these posts. I just
remembered I wanted to say something
about the East Chimney of Rixon's. That was
a bizarre fluke, when Royal went up there.
He was really full of adrenaline and
maybe even a little crazed. He started out
be leading straight up the crack to the
left and promptly, after about 15 or 20 feet
(maybe more, I'd have to check my notes)
fell straight to the ground, miraculously
landing on his feet and not hurting himself.
Hardly taking time to brush himself off,
he turned to the right-hand crack and
began the infamous lieback up it. That he
called it 5.9 originally, well, that was
the top of the standard then, so it was an
accurate rating. But as we began to fine-tune
the gradings, it was clear this pitch was a whole
ball park more difficult than all 5.9s and many
5.10 routes. Try going up there and liebacking that.
Royal's brilliance really shines through, in
retrospect, also his luck! He seemed to hit the
one place where you can suddenly turn out of that
lieback and pull into the squeeze chimney above.
But no one "in their right mind" (I say with
tongue in cheek) would do it that way or even
want to try it that way. The off-width
alternative is really plenty hard. I've done it
several times, once with Higgins, and it's
substantially harder than anything on Crack of Doom.
Yes it's only that one obscure pitch, and the
Crack of Doom rises up the whole side of Elephant
Rock, but there are no particularly beautiful or
aesthetic pitches on Doom. The second is the beauty,
if there is one, a pretty solid squeeze chimney
where you overhang your belayer, with no protection
for about 50 feet. Unless you don't know how to
do those kinds of cracks, you wouldn't fall out of it,
though. The first pitch is a painful handjam,
the third is a deep chimney ending with a tight
squeeze like the Narrows on Sentinel, and the final
pitch is just a short wall between two ledges, with a
finger crack up it. A few tough moves there, which
are the crux of the whole climb, and it's over. But
it's not a climb that strikes you as gorgeous as many
other climbs of similar length do, such as New Dimensions.
Dome is more aesthetic-looking from a distance. It's
quite striking when viewed from the other side of the
Valley. For when Pratt and Mort did that climb,
though, shortly after Royal's East Chimney, it
was a real feat by comparison to much of what was being done.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Pat, why write off the Swan Slab 5.11?
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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I could do something like a thesis
on that subject, and I was there
and remember a lot about all that,
but even though there is lots to talk about
I just am not in the mood, because right
now it just doesn't interest me
and would probably only degrade the
discussions and stray probably too
far from the general subjects at
hand. Another place, another time.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
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I thought the subject was 1st 5.11 in the valley. You wrote Lloyd Price out, gave yourself credit, but now its off limits? pfffft.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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You seem to be in a mood to contend,
and maybe you'd do better to focus
your energy on someone else, or some
other topic, because as I see it
it's not about writing anyone off
or giving myself credit. It's about
discussing to the best of our
abilities historical tidbits that
were significant to a few of us
who were there and who still care, and
others have said up-thread, above, pretty much
in subtle ways what needed to be
said about Swan Slab without in fact
saying anything mean at all. The last
person I would ever write off
is Lloyd. That's not what's happening.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 19, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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Back to the crux...
From Roper's Camp 4.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:13am PT
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And of course Jim lived in the Valley, and lived
climbing truly, but those
numbers don't seem right. How could he have
done only 4 5.10 first ascents in 1970, and only 8
first ascents total for the year 1970? I would have
thought he was doing that many a week.
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:24am PT
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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I think Steve's (Ropers) numbers are correct, but I would disagree with his summary of the 1970 season.
In 1970 I count 64 new routes (using Ed's data base).
Of these 64, 49 were all free routes (I include New Dimensions even though it was not all free).
Of these 49, 15 were 5.10.
Of these 15, 12 included Jim Bridwell, and/or Barry Bates and/or Mark Klemens, in all pairs.
For the year, Jim had 8 FA, 4 of which were 5.10
Barry had 7 FA, of which 4 were 5.10
Mark had 13 FA of which 8 were 5.10.
The next year, in 1971, Jim got busy: the writing was on the wall. Of the 53 all free first ascents that year, 34 were 5.10 or 5.11. Of those 34, Jim was on 12. Jim, Barry, and Mark were on 19 of the 34.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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I wonder if Barry is going to comment on his day out with Steve Wunsch on New D?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2009 - 11:35am PT
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Barry told me the other day (or is it, "The other day Barry told me...") that he wrote a response to this thread but it was "lost in cyberspace." Then he decided it was better to let napping puppies continue to nap. I'll poke him again and see if we can get some non-controversial comments.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 22, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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The puppies are up and wide awake, Barry
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Great read Guy's thanks!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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I'm not worthy to be part of this conversation, but I do want to point out my appreciation for Snyd's extremely funny last post.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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Don't bow too low, you'll hurt yourself! LOL
The Snydline wasn't lost on me. So hard to be here now when you are there later......or maybe I have it backwards?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The New Dimensions report from Pat's Free Climbing in America.
Love the photo!
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