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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 12, 2005 - 03:25pm PT
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"Whoever shaped your worldview is a f#cking genius. To create a framework so completely removed from the facts is pure genius. "
How can you honestly argue this when the country moved farther and farther left from the beginning of the century until the 70's. High taxes for the wealthiest earners, big social programs, further and further federal government intervention in social issues from environmentalism to desegregation to equality in the workplace.
I'm not saying the conservative movement had no influence, or was powerless or made no gains, but the large social changes of the 20th century were championed by liberals.
And if the 'facts' are the exact opposite, then where are they? You true to quote Mcarthy somehow, not sure how that fits in, but slander is not a rebuttal.
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Jul 12, 2005 - 04:13pm PT
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Spinmaster, you are not entirely correct on the class size issue. When I was a kid in private school all of my classes were large and I had some very good teachers. What has changed today in public schools is the lack of disipline and the unwliiingness to fail students. Boosting their self esteem will not help them in the real world. What happens when the get fired from a job for incompetence? They curl up into the fetal position? We are all climbers, we know what failure on a route feels like. But we sure don't pretend to be great until we achieve greatness.
The public health/illegal alien issue is very revelant today. I too am from immigrant German and Polish (and more) ancestors. But remember, yours and mine both went through quarintine. The illegals are just that, illegal. TB is on the rise as well as several others because of the lack of imunizations. So please don't try to put that racist crap on me. I have Mexican immigrants in my family. Our government has a responsibility to protect our borders.
It looks like we agree on personal responsibility.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 12, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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You guys are rediculous. Yes you can always find a guy in a successful institution who failed. Bush and Kerry were both C students at Yale. There are kids in my private school who are total deadbeats now and kids in my public school who are doing extremely well. Why is it that you guys can only look at any one aspect of any one issue at any one time. There are MANY reasons why people are successful or unsuccessful as measured by a variety of factors. My argument is that small class sizes make a very large difference.
To blame public health entirely on illegal immigrants is insane. Our inner cities have the infant mortality rates of 3rd world countries. TB is on the rise because it was never stomped out of a native indigent population, and health care in poor communities is sorely underfunded. But I guess paying for more immunization as you seem to suggest would be just throwing money at the problem, wouldn't it? And of course our borders need to be protected by our government, but with what, 20,000 miles of opeb border what are they supposed to do? And personally, I'm not so obsessed about it that I think we need a 20,000 mile long 40 foot high wall.
"Boosting their self esteem will not help them in the real world."
Are you serious? So what do you do as a parent, break down their self-esteem? Give them no support? Of course building self-esteem helps them in the real world. Self-esteem is EVERYTHING in the real world. Confident jackasses run this country!!! And to quote Rush Limbaugh, "I was successful because my mother told me that I was special."
I don't know about you but as a climber I realize that my successes are just that, my successes. I am emboldened and strengthed by my PERSONAL success, even though what is a lifetime achievment for me is a casual warm-up for others. I feel good about what I have done because it was the best I could do, not because it was better than everyone else. The self-esteem efforts you are belittling are ways of thinking that exactly mirror my description of my climbing accomplishments. They reward children for pushing themselves and working hard, even if they aren't the best.
As my parents put it to me as a kid "We don't care if you get straight F's so long as your effort scores are all excellent." If I got a B and my effort score was sub-par, they were pissed as hell.
Apparently if I was a new climber I would never hear an encouraging word from you. Last time I checked support was what good climbing partners gave each other all the time.
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Chefclimber
Trad climber
Northern Nevada
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Jul 13, 2005 - 02:24pm PT
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Spinmaster, you can't read between the lines very well. I did not blame public health entirrely on illegal immigrants! What is the matter with you? You keep going off the deep end on me. This is only one little aspect of public health. The problem is that even legal immigrants and students from Mexico, Guatemala, Vietnam and China are being improperly screened and the illegal ones are completely missed. According to th LA Times, in 2004 there 930 documented cases of TB and 9 were drug reistnant; more cases than any other state. There is a possibility for an epidemic. These people should never be allowed to enter the country.
I don't break down kids self esteem. What you liberals do is reward the poor performers as well as the good ones and everyone feels good. Just look at the schools that have multiple Valedictorians. They don't want to hurt anyones feelings. . Don't be ridiculous, support and encouragement is always needed. Rewards for sub par effort dosen't help them in the real world and that is what many liberal public schools do.
"We don't care if you get straight F's so long as your effort scores are all excellent." If I got a B and my effort score was sub-par, they were pissed as hell."
Strait F's with EXCELLENT effort? What a crock!
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 13, 2005 - 02:54pm PT
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"What you libs love to forget is that the Equal Rights Act was passed by Republicans NOT Democrats."
And as you point out Dems weren't liberal...and Republicans weren't conservative. None of today's labels applied back then. I don't havea hard on for the Democrats I get excited about progressive movements and policies. Don't forget that Republicans took over the South starting in 1964 when Goldwater, the Republican nominee, came out AGAINST desegregation. Before that the South was a locked-down Democratic stronghold in the same way we think of it as strictly Republican territory today.
And the whole concept of the Valedictorian is that there is ONE person who is the best. That is not the goal of educatio. Its not about NOT hurting people's feelings its about achieving a the actual goal of education. I realize that when you were a kid there was one valedictorian and you had to walk up hill both ways to school through the snow and your parents made you eat sh#t sammies when you got F's and you LIKED it that way and dammit if it was good enough for you then it is good enough for everyone else too but.....
As you said 'rewards for sub-par EFFORT [emphasis added] doesn't help them and that is what liberal schools do." In the next sentence you say "Strait F's with EXCELLENT effort? What a crock!" Gotta love how contradictory those two statements are.
If I was trying hard and not doing well then they knew something wasn't working right an that it wasn't a lack of effort on my part. If I was not trying and doing average then they were angry. Not a hard concept to undesrtand.
As far as health care don't pretend like you drew any lines to read between. Your statements made clear insinuation that the health care problem was that of illegal immigrants, and by your lack of explanation, little more. I'm glad that you can expound on your opinion but don't blame me because you don't qualify your statements.
Furthermore, I think you probably have some good points to make but you are so caught up in demonizing liberals and generalizing and marginalizzing the liberal ideology that it boggles the mind. You say "Social security is the only thing close to liberal.." I'm curious exactly what you think the liberal ideals are? Do you think we are really all cut and dry socialists or communists? That all wealth should be divied up and distributed in even amounts to all people? That we should tiptoe around for fear of offending anyone? I think you probably have a lot to actually learn about liberals and liberal consciousness.
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Jul 13, 2005 - 02:55pm PT
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Please note: some of the most liberal (indeed even radical) ideas to come along in the last 3000 years......
1. All men are created equal (apologies to all females, that's just how it was originally stated).
2. All people are equal under the law.
3. Government should be "of, by and for the people" (old Abe talkin').
4. Slavery is an obomination and illegal.
When these ideas were first proposed, they were opposed tooth and nail by the conservatives of the day. When the radical liberals Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams and others proposed that a certain colony of England's should declare its independance and form a new kind of government based on some of these radical liberal ideas, the local conservative Tory Monarchists were appalled, believing the conservative idea that old King George had some devine and inheritable rights to rule them. If conservatives througout history had had their way.....
Black people in America would still be wearing chains and pickin' cotton.
Woman would not vote.
Rulers would be totally unconstrained by law.
Only those who are ruled would pay taxes. (gee, these last two sound familiar)
And the list goes on.
A Liberal: someone who believes in social and political progress.
A Conservative: someone who believes progress has gone too far.
Simplistic, I know. But in a general way, kinda true.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 13, 2005 - 03:15pm PT
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Sure Jody, civil rights, environmental protection, and respect for women have ruined everything. You bitch about the "ragheads" (your term) but you are the true fundamentalist zealot posting here. But like I said elsewhere, it is impossible to reason with someone who hates science and believes the world is 6,000 years old.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 13, 2005 - 03:26pm PT
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Howwierd,
arete makes some good points. Back during the revolution conservatives such as yourself, fattrad, jody, and JFK would have been cheering as Nathan Hale hit the end of the rope.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 13, 2005 - 04:41pm PT
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Progress according to liberals: Free sex, free drugs, same-sex "marriage", abortion,....you can have it.
vs. what the so-called conservatives want:
expensive sex(?)- maybe they can't get it at home? my sympathies.
expensive drugs(?)- either they want to see the pharmaceutical companies continue to drive up the cost of health care for everyone, thus forcing more of the poor and the wal-mart working class out of the ranks of the insured, and adding to a burden that society must bear (thus creating or adding to a problem that they then whine at the left about trying to solve), or they want to fight the phantom 'war on drugs', jailing nonviolent drug offenders to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars/ year, and spending more billons on law enforcement resources that hardly put a dent in the violent crime rates associated w/ illegal drug trafficking, all in support of a failed policy of prohibition, meanwhile opposing all funding of forward thinking treatment and counseling programs that actually seek to give individuals access to their own 'personal responsibility'.
funking hypocrite...
same sex marriage(?)- sooner or later someone you know or care about will turn out to be a homosexual, or their kid will. go ahead and tell them that they deserve less from society than you do, then tell us all how you are into civil rights and suffrage.
funking hypocrite...
and abortion(?)- let's limit access to birth control and reproductive edumucation, then seek to cut the welfare bennies that single parents can receive., then let's outlaw abortion, just to get them from all sides, because it offends our moral principles, which are based in no small part on our religious beliefs. funck them if they have different beliefs or different priorities, it's her body but it should be up to us what she does with it and what she does in it. Never mind the 400,000 human embryos that are created and destroyed by fertility clinics in this country annually, they are popular among the wealthy white folks, so the massive scale of their slaughter of this same form of "human life" is ok w/ us and we will just suggest that they ought to be adopted out rather than flushed down the toilet (pardon me, have you seen a few hundred thousand married women who'd like to carry a stranger's seed to term? oh, they went that way? why thanks!).
funking hypocrite...
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Jul 13, 2005 - 05:22pm PT
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"If progress is the absolute degradation of society"
hmmmm, this argument was used against suffrage and abolition too.
"as long as women vote conservative"
Allow a woman to vote so long as she votes according to some anger and hate filled person's idea of what's right?? -- yes that's a very conservative idea.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 13, 2005 - 05:27pm PT
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Howweird wrote:
"Progress according to liberals: Free sex, free drugs, same-sex "marriage", abortion,....you can have it."
Very good Howard. Perfect example of the strawman. You've listened to Rush/Fox for sometime now, I take it.
Listening to Rush one day, I heard him put forth what he thought Jesse Jackson might say about whatever the current issue of that day happened to be. Not what Jesse Jackson said, mind you, but what Rush thought he might say. Rush then spent 15 minutes attacking Jesse Jackson for taking that position. Then the dittoheads started calling in, all discombobulated that Jesse Jackson would actually come out and say something so outrageous.
As John Stuart Mill said: "While it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Jul 13, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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Evil liberals, come to the goodness of the Lord. Let us take a moment to consider some choice verses from 1 Samuel.
24 When Saul's servants told him what David had said,
25 Saul replied, "Say to David, 'The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.' " Saul's plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines.
26 When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king's son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed,
27 David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.
28 When Saul realized that the LORD was with David and that his daughter Michal loved David.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 13, 2005 - 05:53pm PT
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There is no such thing as a liberal. There are two peoples,
Humans and Repugnicant rightwing wacko Jasus freak born again neocon troglodytes.
Normal and abnormal.
Moral and amoral.
Smart and dumb as a sack of hammers.
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Blight
Social climber
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Jul 14, 2005 - 05:48am PT
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Hello and welcome to Shouting Incoherently With HowWeirdDean.
I'm HowWeirdDean and tonight I'll be SHOUTING INCOHERENTLY about random topics while people around me raise valid questions.
Some liberals say, "all men are created equal". I say, "you're a TRAITOR and hate the FLAG!" and before you say anything else I'll say, "We did not lose Vietnam, it was a TIE!" and before you start asking any of your liberal bedwetter valid questions or asking me to actually respond to your points, I'll interrupt you and shout, "gay marriage? Saddam had to GO DOWN! Kerry didn't kill enough people in THE NAM and it was a GODDAMN TIE! 9/11! 9/11! WAR WAR WAR!"
Join me after the break when I'll be shouting EVEN LOUDER! Here's suzy with the weather.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 14, 2005 - 07:44am PT
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"Any honest American KNOWS Gore lost fair and square. An honorable man would have not taken the country through all that crap. The supreme court voted 5-4. A disgustlingly narrow margin in my mind. It should have been 7-0. After all it was the super liberal judges that voted for Gore."
It is obvious you have read neither the majority or minority opinions in the case. The reason it was 5-4 is that the majority deliberately trampled both the whole concept of "State's Rights" and 200 years of Congressional electoral history in the course of imposing its decision in that election. The entire basis of the Bush camp's position in the case was as hypocritical as it gets - a complete trampling of State's Rights. The only other recent note of hypocriscy that runs as deep is the neocon cry of "no nation building" (let alone region building)...
Read both the majority and minority opinions - they aren't long and hypocrites like yourself will discover that it is, in fact, only those dissenting "Liberal" justices that were maintaining the traditional "Conservative" position of State's Rights while the majority delivered one of the most "Activist" decisions ever handed down by the Supreme Court. This is yet another example of the end justifying the [employment of any] means by radical conservatives with no moral or ethical boundaries in the pursuit of their agenda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore#The_decision (links at bottom of page)
To-date this crew of criminals and liars have consistently shown they have no respect or regard for the Constitution, personal integrity, State's Rights, fiscally conservative behavior, or the judgement of our military commanders and intelligence community. This country will survive these criminals, but the [religious] ignorance and lack of education that allowed them to come to power speaks badly of our nation's prospects for the future in an increasingly competitive, educated, and skilled world.
P.S. Oh, and no matter how you divide it up - red territory only survives on vast subsidies by blue territories; i.e. Republicans and Conservatives don't carry their weight and are grossly dependent on Federal handouts to survive - real John Waynes and Marlboro men, without a doubt. And of course, this crew can't shovel the pork fast enough, but most of it goes to Corporatations with scraps thrown to the average family (and even those taken away with the other hand - suckers one and all).
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2005 - 10:54am PT
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Thanks for the explanation of a smiley face Howie. I guess anyone who doesn't like twisted logic and filthy vocabulary is just so much more unobservant and dumber than you are. This world sometimes makes me angry too, but I don't lash out with so much disagreeable invective. You must be quite embarrasing to be seen with in public -- or is all this behavior carefully hidden away then?
Do I really need to quote a hundred posts by Howie on this web site to show how much anger and hate is involved??? (and with no smiley faces attached either).
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2005 - 11:49am PT
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"I don't condone men screwing each other and then people telling me I have to accept that kind of behavior. If that is what you are into Matt, knock yourself out. "
You're right JodyDean. It should be illegal. We should have government intruding in all aspects of our private lives, particularly when it involves (Gasp!!! Horror of Horrors!!!) consensual sex between adults. Oral sex and anything else I don't like should be illegal too.
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2005 - 11:50am PT
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"First and foremost, one should never underestimate one’s “enemies” and assume that he(she) is less sophisticated, less intelligent, less educated or whatever along such lines. To a large degree, that is precisely what I see the liberals doing."
Thanks Lois -- very good advice!! I agree 100%. But don't just lecture liberals about this, send it to HowweirdDean. (and quite a few other conservatives too!)
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 14, 2005 - 12:41pm PT
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Eh...Republicans scared of an intelligent, educated and independant woman of running for the White House. Why does that not suprise me?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2005 - 01:00pm PT
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I'd be fine with either of those nominations fattrad. My problem is that they would have to kiss ass to the kooky conservative Bible-thumping wing of the party. There are several moderate Repubs I would consider for Prez, including your man McCain, but I cannot vote for a Repub for the foreseeable future because the religious zealots are calling too many shots.
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